Firestar vs. Tigerclaw

[celestialsquared]

Note: This article will be discussing Tigerclaw before his banishment from ThunderClan because I believe there was a dramatic change of character after that event. Tigerstar was driven by revenge and as we all know, revenge causes people to do things they wouldn’t normally do.

Fireheart/star is portrayed in the books as the cat version of a white knight and Tigerclaw is always portrayed as the evil lurking around the corner. Recently, while going through Forest of Secrets, I’ve noticed something I had failed to notice five years ago: Tigerclaw isn’t as evil as I remembered him to be. Maybe it’s because Tigerstar in the later books is insane and hellbent on destroying Firestar, but now I can’t really blame him. Fireheart ruined his life. Tigerclaw could have been a good leader, had Fireheart never entered the forest and unearthed Redtail’s murder.

Now, in order to determine who would’ve made a better leader, I’ve made a Pros and Cons list of sorts that you guys can comment on/add on to if you can think of any.

Firestar – Pros

Loyal
Firestar is extremely loyal, so much so that he doesn’t mind at all breaking warrior codes left and right if he thought it would benefit his clan. This is particularly true when he was Fireheart and he would cross clan borders willy-nilly as he investigated Tigerclaw.

Compassionate
Everyone from all the clans knows that Firestar is the cat to go to if you want sympathetic ears. He’s willing to give anyone a chance and tries to get the best come out of everyone.

Generally Trustworthy
Firestar has a strong sense of honor; if he says he’s going to do something you can count on him to go through with it.

Cons

Has little understanding of what clan life is about.
Because Firestar started at as a kittypet, he never was able to fully understand what clan pride and life is all about. This can be seen through his appalling naming skills, his acceptance of non-clan cats (even when they’re useless to the clan *coughDaisycough*), and seems to think that all the clans are one unit instead of four separate clans. He isn’t ThunderClan born, so he never really understood what clan pride is.

Overly trusting.
Need I say it? Anyone and I mean ANYONE can join ThunderClan. Elders, useless kittypets, old enemies, confused tribecats, shifty loners…..

Too lax
In the later books, it seems the warrior code is thrown out the window because every young ThunderClanner breaks them repeatedly. Why, you might ask? There’s no punishment for it! Maybe because Firestar broke so many as a young cat, I guess he doesn’t care. At the most you’ll probably get hunting duty all day or clean out the elder’s den.

Sticks his nose everywhere possible.
RiverClan threatening to invade WindClan territory, you say? Round up the battle cats, let’s go! ShadowClan stealing RiverClan’s fish? Don’t worry we got this! What? Why is it that ThunderClan can never handle their own problems, but they have plenty of time to handle everyone else’s problems? You’re not the clan police, Firestar.

Tigerclaw – Pros

Loyal
There’s no way you can doubt Tigerclaw’s loyalty to his clan, afterall, he’ll kill to defend it.

No-nonsense
Apparently, Tigerclaw doesn’t have time to deal with things he perceives as stupid and a waste of time. That includes allowing random cats to be included into the clan just for the heck of it.

Has a solid understanding of clan life.
Tigerclaw was a clan cat and will always be one. Even when he was banished instead of becoming a rogue he joined another clan. He has a solid grasp of the warrior code and for the most part follows them and enforces others to do the same. He has much pride in his clan and himself as a warrior.

Shows excellent leadership skills.
Tigerclaw wasn’t deputy for nothing. You couldn’t help but to follow his orders and he would most likely bully you until you did.

Cons

Overly Ambitious
Alas, it is one Tigerclaw’s most prominent flaws. Once he had his mind set on something, nothing could stand in his way, not even his clanmates

Ruthless
We all know before his banishment, Tigerclaw had threatened many and was very possible for him to make these threats a reality. Once again, if you stood in his way, you just might be eliminated.
This is shown when Tigerclaw accused Fireheart of disloyalty because he had let Silverstream flee without a scratch. There's nothing in the warrior code that says he had to attack, simply that a cat is allowed to flee from battle if it wishes to.

Impatient
What if Tigerclaw had waited until Redtail was leader? He might’ve gotten his chance at being deputy. Even though he didn’t there are more times when his impatience did him in. Tigerclaw was frightened at the thought of goody-two-shoes Fireheart revealing the truth of Redtail’s death to Bluestar and thus, plotted ways to speed up the process. This in fact convinces Fireheart to investigate further, leading to his down fall

So now the question is, who would’ve made a better leader: Firestar or Tigerclaw?

[vbfdoee]

Tigerclaw had the villain ball throughout the series, so in the books themselves it was never a contest. Tigerclaw was basically cat Hitler, with no motivation whatsoever.

Without the authorial bias, I think Tigerclaw would be a much better leader, if only because he genuinely understands Clan life and love ThunderClan. (If Tigerclaw were a tragic hero, would his hamartia be killing Redtail? aaah i have a great idea for a fanfic).

We never really saw what ShadowClan was like under Tigerstar's rule, other than the obvious parallels to Nazi Germany. A country that had recently lost all of its glory and was undergoing crisis turning to the leader who promised to make it great again (at the price of the institutionalized murder of convenient scapegoats). Once again, it's probably worthwhile to note that he suffers greatly from the problem of the designated antagonist.

We have seen what ThunderClan was like under Firestar's leadership. Specifically, we have seen nineteen of them. His greatest failings as a leader can be seen in his character as early as Into The Wild. He doesn't understand Clan life (at best, he speaks it as a clumsily-acquired second social language): the warrior code is, to him, a set of guidelines that he can and should break whenever he feels like it. He is overly lenient while also seeing all Clans' business as his own responsibility. Basically, he just doesn't get leadership. Bluestar literally only made him deputy because of a shooting star that she and Spottedleaf saw.

So my opinion is that, given a fair chance, Tigerclaw would have been a much more effective leader than Firestar.

[Grey]

It seems to me that in a lot of circumstances when it comes to leadership, the "bad guy" in the running is a fighter. Mudclaw, Tigerclaw, Thistleclaw. They are all strong and dependable in a battle.

And battling seems to be given a negative spin. These cats are labelled as "bad guys" because other cats assume they will lead their clans into unnecessary battles - but I wonder, is this true? Certainly, they are toms (and toms are naturally more aggressive than most mollies in temperament) and they are shown to be fearless.

What I'd like to know is what part of that is bad? If anything, I think a cat who is adept in battle is one of the better choices for leader, because they are going to understand how battles work and will probably (one would hope) use their knowledge to ensure as many cats survive their skirmishes as possible. There's a big difference between being skilled at fighting and throwing yourself, screaming and flailing, at anyone who disagrees with you. -claw represents a skill. These cats are skilled.

Bluestar at some point comments that she "had to beat Thistleclaw to the deputy position, because otherwise the forest would run with blood" or some other similar sentiment along those lines. I can't find the quote, but if anyone could let me know if they know it, that would be great. Thanks.

Judging by the Bluestar Diaries, Blue- has no evidence of this from Thistlepaw/Thistleclaw's behaviour. He's a little brash and impetuous (he's also a young cat, so he hasn't fully matured or mellowed-out yet) , and he's certainly got a taste for battle, but does that make him a bad candidate for leadership? Based on those facts alone, I say no.

Mudclaw of Windclan acts violently when his deputyship is taken away from him at the last minute because Tallstar has sudden misgivings on his deathbed. I would go on a campaign for righteous vengeance too, if that happened to me. Once again, I don't believe there is any evidence for the switch from Mudclaw to Onewhisker. Tallstar knew Mudclaw from the time he was a kitten and deemed him to be an appropriate choice for deputy. That speaks for itself. The call is made. Mudclaw is the rightful leader of Windclan and Onewhisker is a usurper.

Likewise, the above posts illustrate exactly how grounded Tigerclaw was. He may have been blunt and harsh, especially to his apprentice - but look at Ravenpaw. He is the young Neville Longbottom of Thunderclan, and just about anyone would get annoyed with him. Tigerclaw was trying to do his best by a kitten that showed no inclination for battle, no talent in hunting and had a severely neurotic personality. He would have constantly been at his wits end. As well as this, it's no secret that he desired to be Thunderclan's leader, and a cat's apprentices are a direct representation of their own skills. Ravenpaw was ruining Tigerclaw's chances of deputyship in the near future.

Yes, Tigerclaw was brutal to Ravenpaw. I am not denying that. A sensitive and nervous apprentice should have been given a less ambitious, more empathetic mentor, though, not a "no-nonsense" hardcore battle tom. Tigerclaw didn't give himself Ravenpaw as an apprentice. Bluestar did. It's her duty to know all the cats in the clan, and she gave Ravenpaw to Tigerclaw. That also speaks for itself.

I think Tigerclaw was right in worrying for his clan's future if that's the kind of leader they've got.

To summarise:

- there is an authorial prejudice against -claw cats, as they are portrayed as violent.

- there is a belief that violent -claw cats will "drench the forest in blood" because they are more aggressive than others, despite the fact they are the best fighters around and would be expected to know exactly the best way to conduct battles for maximum results and minimal injury to their clan. As a friendly reminder, Brokenstar (-tail) was probably one of the most sinister leaders in recent history because he had the idea to send undersized kittens into a battle. That's a terrible idea. On many levels for many reasons. It's also one I don't believe a sensible or battle-savvy leader would make.

- in canon, cats appear to be frightened of "too many" or unnecessary battles. Is there such a thing as an unnecessary battle, though? That's a topic for another time, I think.

When it comes down to it, I'd vote for Tigerclaw. He mightn't talk about feelings so much but nothing and no one would ever threaten the clan.

[celestialsquared]

Oct 2, 2012 20:35:26 GMT -6 Grey said:

there is a belief that violent -claw cats will "drench the forest in blood" because they are more aggressive than others, despite the fact they are the best fighters around and would be expected to know exactly the best way to conduct battles for maximum results and minimal injury to their clan.

I think you're pretty right in your assessment of -claw cats in general, especially since Bramblestar's struggle with his skill and his past being the subject of the New Prophecy arc. It's pretty much expected that any cat with profound battle skills is suspect to cause an era of war and chaos.

[Grey]

It's pretty much expected that any cat with profound battle skills is suspect to cause an era of war and chaos.

I would love to see the statistics for canon battles. Who started what, what happened, who died, that sort of thing.

[celestialsquared]

Oct 2, 2012 21:14:55 GMT -6 Grey said:

It's pretty much expected that any cat with profound battle skills is suspect to cause an era of war and chaos.

I would love to see the statistics for canon battles. Who started what, what happened, who died, that sort of thing.

Ah, if only cats understood that kind of thing. Then they would stop putting such condemning their -claw kitties as bad leaders. As far as I can tell, the majority of leaders who caused wars never even had the -claw suffix.

[Grey]

Ah, if only cats understood that kind of thing.

I don't blame the cats, Celestial.

(Wow, for anyone who has seen Brother Bear, that sounded like 'I don't blame the bear, Kenai' in my head).

I think it's another example of poor work by Erin Hunter. After all, they chose who has which suffix, what cat acts like what and they dictate the general ambiance about other characters, et cetera. It's just a shame they did the "-claw = evil" thing and didn't think too much about it. As usual.

I think the cats would know that -claw wasn't as negative as it's portrayed in the books. They certainly know better in my head.

[Lady Ten]

Oct 2, 2012 17:52:50 GMT -6 celestialsquared said:

Firestar – Pros

Loyal
Firestar is extremely loyal, so much so that he doesn’t mind at all breaking warrior codes left and right if he thought it would benefit his clan. This is particularly true when he was Fireheart and he would cross clan borders willy-nilly as he investigated Tigerclaw.

Tigerclaw – Pros

Loyal
There’s no way you can doubt Tigerclaw’s loyalty to his clan, afterall, he’ll kill to defend it.

This is kind of a nebulous trait here. Maybe they all are, in a sense, but what does it mean to do things "for the benefit of the Clan" or "to defend the Clan"? We can come up with lots of answers, but it's still kind of an abstract -- and I'm not sold on the idea that Fireheart broke all those rules out of loyalty per se. Same goes for Tigerclaw. Once we get some concrete examples, I imagine we'll be able to discuss this in more specifics.

Compassionate
Everyone from all the clans knows that Firestar is the cat to go to if you want sympathetic ears. He’s willing to give anyone a chance and tries to get the best come out of everyone.

Unless you're a blood relative of his nemesis.

You’re not the clan police, Firestar.

I haven't read that far into the books, but the way people talk about it, ThunderClan comes off like Warriors America.

No-nonsense
Apparently, Tigerclaw doesn’t have time to deal with things he perceives as stupid and a waste of time. That includes allowing random cats to be included into the clan just for the heck of it.

As with Yellowfang, for example. I'm still not sure exactly why they decided so quickly to adopt her.

Tigerclaw's yowl sounded impatient. "It's just too dangerous to bring an enemy warrior into the hear to ThunderClan! Now that she knows the camp, even the youngest ShadowClan kit will hear of it. We will have to move." (Into the Wild, p.94)

Shows excellent leadership skills.
Tigerclaw wasn’t deputy for nothing. You couldn’t help but to follow his orders and he would most likely bully you until you did.

Well, that's not how I would define excellent leadership skills.

Oct 2, 2012 21:05:17 GMT -6 celestialsquared said:

Oct 2, 2012 20:35:26 GMT -6 Grey said:

there is a belief that violent -claw cats will "drench the forest in blood" because they are more aggressive than others, despite the fact they are the best fighters around and would be expected to know exactly the best way to conduct battles for maximum results and minimal injury to their clan.

I think you're pretty right in your assessment of -claw cats in general, especially since Bramblestar's struggle with his skill and his past being the subject of the New Prophecy arc. It's pretty much expected that any cat with profound battle skills is suspect to cause an era of war and chaos.

Folks need to realize that a name ending in "claw" shouldn't be interpreted as "Leroy Jenkins".

Oct 2, 2012 21:14:55 GMT -6 Grey said:

I would love to see the statistics for canon battles. Who started what, what happened, who died, that sort of thing.

This here. I want to see these.

[Grey]

Folks need to realize that a name ending in "claw" shouldn't be interpreted as "Leroy Jenkins".

This is glorious. That is all.

[celestialsquared]

Oct 2, 2012 22:46:40 GMT -6 Lady Ten said:

Well, that's not how I would define excellent leadership skills.

Understandably, simply giving orders is not leadership. Leadership is being able to come up with decent solutions to problems and setting an example for your followers. For the most part, Tigerclaw displayed all these.

[celestialsquared]

Found something on the subject of Firestar's loyality:

As Fireheart said good-bye to Yellowfang and went back to hunting, he felt a new surge of determination to bring Tigerclaw's guilt into the open. For the sake of Redtail, murdered; for Ravenpaw, driven from the Clan; for Cinderpaw, crippled. And for all the Clan cats, both now and to come, who were in danger from Tigerclaw's greed for power.

-Forest of Secrets p.47, paperback

I think this says something about Firestar's dedication to the clan. Remember, he used to be a kittypet; it would've been nothing at all if he chose to go back to that life once again. Instead, he decided to stick with cats he had no kinship with and seemed to have dangers at every corner. Any sane cat would've probably gone back to the easy life of a kittypet, but Firestar chose to say.

Tigerclaw's loyalty, on the other hand, is rarely mentioned explicitly for the obvious reason that he is the book's antagonist. The only prominent clue to his loyalty is his clan pride, which can be implied here:

"Brave words," growled Tigerclaw from where he sat on the other side of Bluestar. "Or are we ashamed to admit what we've done?"

Forest of Secrets p. 16, paperback

The context from which Tigerclaw speaks is whether or not to admit that ThunderClan had not killed Brokentail and is in fact holding him hostage in their camp, in which Bluestar had decided not to speak of. This could either mean Tigerclaw is not at all afraid of the wrath of the other clans if they knew the truth, or that he thinks they should have killed Brokentail.
I also forgot to mention that even though Tigerclaw is known to be cold and ruthless, he didn't kill Ravenpaw. I never understood why he didn't; it would certainly be to his advantage and it's not like the clan is particularly fond of Ravenpaw anyway. Instead, he thinks it is enough to simply threaten the young cat into staying quiet. Maybe it is his wish not to harm any of his clanmates and not to involve them in his ambition for power.

[saphirabunny]

Oct 2, 2012 17:52:50 GMT -6 celestialsquared said:

Sticks his nose everywhere possible.
RiverClan threatening to invade WindClan territory, you say? Round up the battle cats, let’s go! ShadowClan stealing RiverClan’s fish? Don’t worry we got this! What? Why is it that ThunderClan can never handle their own problems, but they have plenty of time to handle everyone else’s problems? You’re not the clan police, Firestar.

This and the whole being lax about rules thing are two of the reasons I absolutely HATE Firestar in the later books.

But honestly, the only thing "wrong" with Tigerstar in the books was killing his clanmates. There was nothing wrong with his ambitions to be a leader especially when he probably just wanted the best for his Clan, and he would have been an awesome leader, if he had waited and earned it rather than killing everyone ahead of him. I feel like that was the whole point of him killing his clanmates, to make him evil. Otherwise there would have been no reason for Firestar to become a hero, and then the leader. Everything was set up to fall down for Firestar.

Oct 2, 2012 20:35:26 GMT -6 Grey said:

The call is made. Mudclaw is the rightful leader of Windclan and Onewhisker is a usurper.

Yeah and the best part is that it probably made WindClan MORE hostile to ThunderClan than under Mudclaw because Onestar had to prove he wasn't ThunderClan's lapdog.

[Shellwhisker]

Tigerstar DID make an amazing Leader.
He joined ShadowClan at a time when they needed a strong cat to bring them back from the dregs of despair. Imagine what it was like, for a moment- a ThunderClan enemy, coming into their clan, telling them that he'd been exiled. True, he probably wasn't honest about his sins or his reasons for being exiled, but he spent a couple moons there, gaining their trust enough for them to let him become leader and then proving his worth when he made them strong again after the sickness faded off.

That, to me, takes some talent, and Tigerclaw had that. He had the skills, the strength, and the ability to run a Clan flawlessly that they needed and he succeeded at it. He was ten times the leader that Firestar had ever been, and would ever be.

There's no argument here for me.

[Grey]

He was ten times the leader that Firestar had ever been, and would ever be.

On a side-note, this line made the Lion King ring in my ears for a while. The only difference is that Tigerclaw (Scar?) actually is just that much better than Firestar (Mufasa?) in many ways.

[Shellwhisker]

Grey, You rock. xD

Thank you for getting the reference. <3