Redundancy in Suffix Meaning

[CATION]

So, through some reading I’ve done on a few blogs the focus on traditional naming, it seems that redundancy in suffix meaning is something that’s generally frowned upon by some. For example, using “-flight” to signify that a character is fast, when “-foot” already represents the same things. Or even to use a canon example, “Tallpoppy”, who could have easily been “Tallflower” (although what “Tall-“ is supposed to represent, I haven’t the foggiest). I understand that different suffixes that mean the same thing aren’t necessary, but I don’t exactly see the huge problem with redundancy, so to speak.

I’m not trying to criticize anyone’s method of traditional naming by any means, I guess I’d just like everyone’s opinion on why redundancy in suffixes is such a taboo thing when it comes to this naming style.

And this is something I also thought up: "Pelt" and "Fur" pretty much mean the same thing. I mean, they even allude to the same part of the cat's body. And yet, I see both of them on suffix lists everywhere. Aren't those two things at least the slightest bit redundant?

note: I hope this is the right board for this, I seem to be interrupting a long line of threads discussing specific suffixes...

also, the edits that I've made aren't changing the content, it's just more of a grammar sweep.

[mistytail]

No worries, you're in the right place

-pelt and -fur are both kept because they both are generally used to signify an average warrior, and allow for a bit more diversity in doing so. Imagine how boring it would be to have Stonefur, Brownfur, Blackfur, Volefur, and Thrushfur all in the same Clan! Changing it up with -pelt allows for names that mean the same thing to visually and aduibly keep the same old song sounding fresh. Plus, you need more than oen suffix for an average warrior, because not everybody is the best at something. A Clan would die without the help of its average Joes.

However, for skill or personality-specific suffixes, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to have redundant suffixes. There can only be a few cats that are excellent at what they do. Why have Ravenflight and Rosefoot if they're the only fast cats in the Clan? Ravenfoot and Rosefoot would still signify their speed. Same with the other suffixes. You're right in that it isn't a huge issue, but it's nice to have a sort of code when it comes to naming. At least for me it is

[Grey]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Basically, -fur and -pelt (and -stripe and -face), boil down to the same implication - a cat that does not have a particularly outstanding skills, and whose personality does not match the traits intrinsic to -heart, -storm or -cloud.

That makes -fur and -pelt the most versatile of all suffixes. Almost any cat can have these suffixes, so long as they don't fit the aforementioned things. As Mistytail said, that means a lot of cats are going to get these suffixes, and if half the clan has the suffix -fur, there is going to be an effect on morale.

Every cat is an individual and as there are many "average" cats, it makes sense to have a couple of options to ensure that those cats are recognised as individuals, not a faceless multitude. -stripe is given specifically to tabbies but has the same meaning as -fur and -pelt when it comes to connotations of skill, and -face is much the same but for a cat that is notably attractive in appearance.

[leah]

I hate it when people come to me with a -brook name and say it's the same as -stream because they're the same thing.

First off, there's no point: even if they did mean the same thing, why bother? Why not just stick with -stream?

Second off, it's not exactly referencing a body of water. Okay, maybe traditionally it is, because that's probably how it was used canon-wise, but the verb meaning of stream is:

(Of liquid) Run or flow in a continuous current in a specified direction.

Google

Not only does it not have to be water, but it's a verb, for goodness sakes! The key words are "flow" and "continuous". Brook, on the other hand, is not (verb wise, anyway, which means to tolerate or allow). Noun-wise, however, brooks ARE small streams, and using that because one IS the other is as insane as using -rose or -daisy as suffixes just because they ARE flowers. It's just... no.

[Lady Ten]

Sept 7, 2012 18:54:22 GMT -6 CATION said:

So, through some reading I’ve done on a few blogs the focus on traditional naming, it seems that redundancy in suffix meaning is something that’s generally frowned upon by some.

When I first saw the title of this thread, I thought you meant something completely different. Granted, those ditto suffixes are annoying too, but when I think redundant names, I think of names like Darkshadow or Palesnow or Spottedpattern, where literally all the suffix does is describe appearance, usually in the exact same way as the prefix, with more effort than is even necessary. It's pointless.

note: I hope this is the right board for this, I seem to be interrupting a long line of threads discussing specific suffixes...

Oh yes, anything to do with names and naming styles belongs here in the Names board. You've got it perfect.

Sept 7, 2012 20:11:34 GMT -6 @mistytail said:

-pelt and -fur are both kept because they both are generally used to signify an average warrior,

Welllll, that's not the only reason they're used.

But on the topic of redundancy... I think this is just some canon exposure bias. We accepted them as natural in the first series, and we're so used to them now that to say, "No more 'pelt'! It should only be fur!" just sounds crazy and anal. If anyone wanted to take things that far, I wouldn't argue with them, but I can imagine them encountering a huge wall of "nobody cares" and gathering little support.

Speaking of which, I'm still pleasantly surprised I'm not the only one posting on this forum.

Sept 7, 2012 20:44:02 GMT -6 leah said:

I hate it when people come to me with a -brook name and say it's the same as -stream because they're the same thing.

But they're not the same thing at all.

Not only does it not have to be water, but it's a verb, for goodness sakes! The key words are "flow" and "continuous". Brook, on the other hand, is not (verb wise, anyway, which means to tolerate or allow). Noun-wise, however, brooks ARE small streams, and using that because one IS the other is as insane as using -rose or -daisy as suffixes just because they ARE flowers. It's just... no.

This here.

[celestialsquared]

I think people choose redundant suffixes because they believe that it makes their cats more unique. In fact, in one of my rating boards I had encountered a rather headstrong roleplayer who, no matter what traditional alternative I gave her, would not hear me because she believed those suffixes were "overused". All of her names had to have some meaning relating to the history of the cats rather than appearance and personality and it was easy to see she was naming for aesthetic value. In reality, I think it really just makes the name more confusing and unbelievable.

[leah]

all of her names had to have some meaning relating to the history of the cats....

I don't see the point in relating names to history. It doesn't actually make the cat any special. It's like, "oh, she's named because she was born in the rain" (you wouldn't BELIEVE how many times I've heard that one) the problem is, the cat's siblings were too, and thousands of cats in history were born in the freaking rain. I don't think the Clan /cares/.

Anyway, what's worse when it comes to Redundancy is that there's no /point/ in using similar suffixes. How does using -rose make your cat any different than a cat with -flower? Let me answer that: absolutely nothing. So what's the point? Nothing. There isn't a point. I don't see "overused" as an excuse to use such suffixes. In fact, if anything, because of all the people trying to make their cats "special" and naming them with -rose, that suffix is actually used more often than -flower. I brought this up on the thread where the name Brownfur was mentioned, where the name isn't that common BECAUSE people think it's too common.

[Grey]

It's like, "oh, she's named because she was born in the rain" (you wouldn't BELIEVE how many times I've heard that one)

To date, the most common one I have heard is "apple-, because they were born under an apple tree". I think I've heard it about four times so far and every cat had a different appearance.

[celestialsquared]

Sept 30, 2012 6:55:43 GMT -6 Grey said:

It's like, "oh, she's named because she was born in the rain" (you wouldn't BELIEVE how many times I've heard that one)

To date, the most common one I have heard is "apple-, because they were born under an apple tree". I think I've heard it about four times so far and every cat had a different appearance.

There's so many jokes and jabs I have lined up for that explanation.

[Rolo]

Sept 7, 2012 18:54:22 GMT -6 CATION said:

And this is something I also thought up: "Pelt" and "Fur" pretty much mean the same thing. I mean, they even allude to the same part of the cat's body. And yet, I see both of them on suffix lists everywhere. Aren't those two things at least the slightest bit redundant?

I've always taken '-pelt' to mean short-furred and '-fur' to mean long-furred, perhaps misguidedly, but that's how I justify both of them being used.


I'm a traditional namer who has always tried to get rid of naming redundancy. Mostly because I believe that suffixes are part of tradition, a coming of age ceremony. They're not there to be pretty, unusual or attractive, they are there to signify rank and skills. Getting your well-used and traditional suffix when becoming a warrior signifies your joining adulthood, and that each of these suffixes signify a carefully marked out skill. So, with little thought, a new deputy can organise a balanced patrol (a -whisker for scenting, a -fang/claw (claw by my definitions) for possible protection, and perhaps a -heart/pelt/fur to lead them or to make up numbers). Additionally, in a battle situation, you're unlikely to know every cat on the field individually, however a good name should describe them well enough so you can identify them easily AND know whether to avoid them based on their skills.

So, my like of non-redundant suffixes comes mainly from my own head-canon.

[leah]

I've always taken '-pelt' to mean short-furred and '-fur' to mean long-furred, perhaps misguidedly, but that's how I justify both of them being used.

Me too, actually. A short-furred cat always comes to mind when I see -pelt, and I see long fur with a -fur name. They still have pretty much the same meaning, but the reason I think using both is justified is because there are a /lot/ of ordinary cats within the Clans that really have nothing special to be named after. If there was just one word to use, (fur or pelt, whichever one) the suffix would be seen too often. I'm not talking about being too common within the entire fanbase, but just within a Clan of cats, and using both suffixes allows for more names to be given to "unspecial" cats.