Firepaw's shriveled, empty heart

[Lady Ten]

Note: this is a discussion thread for Firepaw, as depicted in Into the Wild. To discuss Fireheart or Firestar, make another thread. Same deal if you want to discuss his character arc or development/changes over the series.


As you can see by the subject of this thread, today's topic is Firepaw's emotional emptiness, by request. While there are several things young Firepaw does that don't jive with my sense of ethics, what's most striking to me is his reaction to Rosetail's death. As in, he doesn't have one.

Full context: Firepaw comes from a kittypet background and has never been in a real battle before today. He's been through warrior training, but this (as far as the reader as been informed) is the first time he has witnessed such a level of rampant violence. There is nothing in his background to suggest familiarity with what he's experiencing in this scene. He's just discovered a battle raging in ThunderClan camp when this happens.

Into the Wild, p. 193:

Then he saw a white ShadowClan cat with jet-black paws dragging a ThunderClan elder away from the nursery. Firepaw remembered those unusual dark paws from the Gathering. Blackfoot! The ShadowClan deputy made quick work of killing the elder, who had been guarding the kits, and began to reach into the bramble nest with one massive paw.

Firepaw literally watches an old lady die right before his eyes, at the claws of a ruthless murderer.

His reaction? There isn't one. It's never described. Look for it; it's not there.

During this scene, these are the details that his POV narration suggests that he's paying attention to: the ShadowClan cat's fur color, identifying Blackfoot, and noting the size of Blackfoot's paws.

Here are details that are not included: how much Rosetail struggled, whether she was able to call for help, what her wounds were like, how well Firepaw knew or liked her as a Clanmate, or whether he felt any unpleasant emotion at all upon watching her being murdered.

I don't care why the authors chose not to include that level of detail in their children's book. The point is, as the narration stands, it's as though Firepaw is hardly paying that aspect of the situation any attention. There's no indication that he's doing anything but making cold observations.

It's quite possible that he's in shock over witnessing the murder, but then you'd expect him to have some sort of emotional breakdown over it later, or to have nightmares about Rosetail's dying gasps, or for him to mope and blame himself for not trying to save her (or not being able to save her). None of that happens, and there's only one explanation: he just doesn't care. He has a hollow shell in his chest where his heart should be.

Again, this is the first time he's ever seen extreme violence, and there's no reason to believe he should already be numb to it. He's just an apprentice. An ex-kittypet apprentice, at that. Even a Clanborn apprentice should be shocked to see this for the first time. No, even a seasoned warrior should have some sort of reaction to this, given that most warriors never kill in battle. But Firepaw? Nothing. He feels nothing.


As a reminder, this is not a discussion of the Erin's intentions or what they meant to write. This is a discussion of what's in print, pure and simple.

[mistytail]

It might have to do with the fact that Rosetail was a throwaway character, She's not listed in the allegiances, and she's only talked about as she's dying. Actually, that's probably more disturbing, when you think about it: they made up a life just so she could be killed by Blackfoot, leaving both reader and author with a sense of detachment. Why not kill Dappletail or Smallear? But alas, this is all author intent.

At any rate, Firepaw's non-reaction in the moment may have had to do with the fact that he was overwhelmed by the rampant violence, and didn't ztop to think. He may have been relying solely on self-preserving instinct while trying to remember his training, hence why he focuses so much on the enemy. However, his total non-reaction afterwards is inexcusable. He wailed and cried for poor Spottedleaf, but he watched Rosetail die before him. Shouldn't that warrant more of a reaction than "oh no the hot medicine cat is dead!"?

[Grey]

At any rate, Firepaw's non-reaction in the moment may have had to do with the fact that he was overwhelmed by the rampant violence, and didn't ztop to think.

It's not a thought reaction. At best, witnessing a brutal murder, he might think - "Oh my fur and whiskers, she's dead!" - but the alarming thing, and the thing that Ten is commenting on I think, is his lack of an emotional response.

Death, and especially murder, naturally triggers an emotional reaction, regardless of what you're thinking. Your emotional reaction is often faster than any other, and largely uncontrollable.

If you see violence, your likely response will be repulsion, fear or shock in some way. That's the normal human reaction. The lack of it is commonly associated with sociopathy* or other disorders.

*Sociopathy is an outdated, though familiar, term for Antisocial personality disorder.

[mistytail]

Aug 31, 2012 19:04:01 GMT -6 Grey said:

At any rate, Firepaw's non-reaction in the moment may have had to do with the fact that he was overwhelmed by the rampant violence, and didn't ztop to think.

It's not a thought reaction. At best, witnessing a brutal murder, he might think - "Oh my fur and whiskers, she's dead!" - but the alarming thing, and the thing that Ten is commenting on I think, is his lack of an emotional response.

Death, and especially murder, naturally triggers an emotional reaction, regardless of what you're thinking. Your emotional reaction is often faster than any other, and largely uncontrollable.

If you see violence, your likely response will be repulsion, fear or shock in some way. That's the normal human reaction. The lack of it is commonly associated with sociopathy* or other disorders.

*Sociopathy is an outdated, though familiar, term for Antisocial personality disorder.

Oh, pff. Whoops. Then yes, I agree, that's highly disturbing :s

Are there any other examples of this? I would try to add my own but I can't think of any :c

[Lady Ten]

Aug 31, 2012 18:41:03 GMT -6 @mistytail said:

However, his total non-reaction afterwards is inexcusable.

Aug 31, 2012 19:04:01 GMT -6 Grey said:

Death, and especially murder, naturally triggers an emotional reaction, regardless of what you're thinking. Your emotional reaction is often faster than any other, and largely uncontrollable.

Basically this. There's something very wrong with Firepaw.

Are there any other examples of this?

This is the creepiest one. There are a few other things I've noted, though, that together paint a picture of a cat who lacks appropriate responses to the given situation.

Note: the following quotes do reference some scenes when Firepaw was still Rusty, as I consider them roughly the same character for this thread's purposes.

Into the Wild, p. 13-14: Remember when he met Graypaw?

[Rusty] quickly found his footing and arched his back, puffing out his orange fur, ready to spring onto the other kitten. But his attacker simply sat up and began to lick a forepaw, all signs of aggression gone.

Rusty felt strangely disappointed. Every part of him was tense, ready for battle.

"Hi there, kittypet!" meowed the gray tom cheerily. "You put up quite a fight for a tame kitty!"

Rusty remained on tiptoe for a second, wondering whether to attack anyway.

So he ventures out onto a different territory, gets attacked for it, and when his attacker pauses to give him a break, he neither thinks about taking the chance to get out of there or even engaging in some peaceful discussion with this new acquaintance, but instead considers attacking the cat who was defending his territory and has now chosen to back off. I cannot begin to explain any further how much this does not make sense, unless Firepaw is just bloodthirsty.

Into the Wild, p.260: Remember his first battle on ShadowClan territory?

Blinded by fury, he prepared to sink his teeth into Clawface’s neck. But before he could deal his death blow, Whitestorm knocked him aside and grasped the ShadowClan warrior.

In the books, battles mostly consist of "beat up the other cats until they run away". Firepaw, who was raised in the soft life of a kittypet, actually tries to kill a ShadowClan warrior. I'm not sure how he's such good fighter that he could even manage such a thing, but apparently he tried to (and would have succeeded, too, if Whitestorm hadn't intervened). Someone might defend Firepaw here by pointing out that he was "blinded by fury," but that's kind of my point.

Into the Wild, p. 76: Remember when Firepaw smelled a fox?

"I was following one of those when we first... met," whispered Firepaw.

"More likely it was following you, you idiot!" hissed Graypaw. "Never trust a fox. Looks like a dog, behaves like a cat. We must warn the queens that one has strayed into our territory. Foxes are as bad as badgers when it comes to killing young kits. I'm just glad you didn't catch up with the one you saw last time. He'd have made mousemeat out of a tiny scrap like you." Firepaw looked a little put out, and Graypaw added, "You'd stand a better chance these days, though."

Okay, that dialogue is a mess, but here's how I read this conversation.

Gray: Dude, I'm glad you didn't catch up to that thing, because it would have totally kicked your ***.
Fire: ):
Gray: Well, I mean, at least you're tougher than you were.

Why does Firepaw look "a little put out" at the idea that a fox could beat him? Does he think he's supposed to be the most invincible thing in the forest? He's only an apprentice, for Pete's sake. This just comes across as arrogant to me. As does this.

Into the Wild p. 21-22:

Bluestar fell silent and Lionheart meowed, "Bluestar is only offering you training, young kit. There is no guarantee you would become a full warrior. It might prove too difficult for you. After all, you are used to a comfortable life."

Rusty was stung by Lionheart's words.

It's just the truth, geez. Honestly, it's like he expects everyone to think of him as some sort of bad***, without even having to do a thing to prove himself.

And here's another quote that really came off like his head is in the wrong place.

Into the Wild, p.252:

“Have we done the right thing?” asked Graypaw.

“I don’t know,” Firepaw admitted. “If we have, we are heroes and the kits are safe."

Real heroes don't call themselves heroes. Especially not before they've even accomplished anything. Ever see one of those news stories about a normal citizen who took a risk to help rescue someone from drowning or snatch them out of danger? Those people always say they don't think of themselves as heroes. They're just doing what they thought was the decent thing to do, or however they choose to put it. To label yourself a potential hero just sounds full of yourself. It also rubs me the wrong way that he puts "we are heroes" before "the kits are safe," rather indicative of his priorities. He's more interested in personal glory than helping others or even giving a care whether they've done the right thing.

Also, throughout the book, I noticed that descriptions of his actual emotions were infrequent, and he came off as rather cold and passive, when he wasn't being stung/shocked by insults or itching to harm others.

Dunno about you guys, but I wouldn't want this cat in my Clan.

[drheiter]

I'd be happy to if you wanted me to, but I don't think I want to repost every single thing you just said, Ten, because every quote you provided sums up one thing to me: This. Is. Why. Kittypets. Should. Not. Be. Allowed. Into. Clans. I feel that it's a ridiculous notion that a kittypet would even begin to understand Clan life. Kittypet kits are debatable, but a cat of Firepaw's age when he joined was raised to believe that they should care only for themselves. That's just the kind of life a kittypet lives; I'm not saying they're selfish or that I have anything against them, just that they don't belong in a Clan.

They have no sense of loyalty or respect for their elders. I know that Firepaw later learns what these things mean, but I have to question Bluestar's sanity for letting this thing into her Clan. He's full of himself because that is what a kittypet is taught to do, to respect themselves and care for themselves. I'm not saying this makes his actions/feelings (or lack of feelings) any better, just that they are suited to a kittypet's life.

This, really, is why I'm not fond of the idea that so many roleplayers/fanfiction authors have nowadays; 'My character was a kittypet until he was 5 moons!' is so overused and they don't have any idea what that means for the cat or the Clan.

Basically what I'm trying to say here is that Firepaw in Into The Wild is the exact same thing as Daisy from the minute she was introduced; a kittypet who doesn't belong anywhere near a Clan.

[Rolo]

Hey, before I comment on the discussion, I need to pick on something in the original post. I'm not usually so picky about wording and the like, but this is one thing that really jars me. I'm only mentioning it because it could come across as ignorant or disrespectful to some people, and they might take offence.

"As you can see by the subject of this thread, today's topic is Firepaw's utter sociopathy,"

This sentence could really do with being altered to something else with a more precise meaning. Mostly because, despite what people are discussing here, Firepaw is not a sociopath. He may have a few sociopathic tendencies, but he only barely ticks 2 of the boxes out of the 5 needed in the DMV (Diagnostic manual used by psychologists), and the idea that he is a sociopath would not cross a diagnostic psychologist's mind. As a result, it sounds as if you are using 'sociopathic' as a describing word for 'apathetic', rather than treating it as a disorder with various different elements (much like the people who say 'they're so bipolar' because they're moody, or 'schizo' to mean crazy).

My suggestion, therefore, would be to change it to 'Firepaw's apathy and lack of empathy', or something like that.


Anyway, as for Firepaw, I have to admit I don't agree with a lot of your points, Ten. Yes, I agree that Firepaw's lack of reaction is abnormal in this scene, but I think the fault lies more with poor writing than anything else. I think the Erins were so concerned about representing the actions of Blackfoot correctly, they presented only a very broken down play-by-play of events. If I remember correctly, all the details about Blackfoot are important later, as is the fact that the kits are being stolen. Additionally, the narrative isn't from Firepaw's perspective and Rosetail isn't a cat he knows at all, meaning he's less likely to care about her. It's also not the first death he has witnessed. He saw Redtail's corpse and the mourning it resulted early on in his clan-life, and I believe his reaction was shock and that he was pretty respectful to the dead warrior (I can't remember too much, I've not read the book in a long time). And, as said by Mistytail, when he sees that Spottedleaf is dead, he does react and mourn, mostly because that's a cat he actually had a relationship with.

It could also, weakly, be argued that, since he's in a war situation, he's suppressed his emotions. It happens. But yeah, weak excuse.

In addition to this, apart from perhaps Ravenpaw (who is an exception, but only just), no other cats in the entire book show surprise or disgust or anything like that when it comes to violence. There are no scared apprentices, frightened by the violence or harsh realities of their existence. No cats who explicitly state they are afraid for their life in battle, or that they loathe that this is what they must do. It seems to be accepted as given. The only thing ANY of the cats show is a fear that they might lose their life or their friends, and that's the case across the board. So, suggesting this is a character flaw with Firepaw himself doesn't feel right to me, it's a flaw of ALL the characters in the books AND the Erin's writing style. The Erins never even begin to explore how rough the life of a warrior is, or how it might impact on a character's psychology or actions... they just make it out that the cats are in this brilliant band-of-brothers kinda situation and that the fighting is of little consequence. The reality is never hard-hitting or well-represented, which has always been a major flaw in these books.

Even Ravenpaw, who is panicky about Redtail's death and the violence he's seen, has another, more pressing reason to be panicky. He's just witnessed a major betrayal, a clan-member killing another, and he knows that he's in trouble for that. So no, it's not likely that the violence itself got to him, more the motive behind the violence.

So yeah. I don't think the example you pulled out in the first post could be used to suggest that Firepaw lacks empathy entirely. I think it's a valid point to discuss, but ultimately I don't think that situation is enough in itself. It doesn't make Firepaw any less of a bland, jerky and horribly written character, though. And it does mean that he's very unsympathetic, especially when looking at the other examples you picked out.

[Lady Ten]

Sept 1, 2012 0:15:49 GMT -6 drheiter said:

I'd be happy to if you wanted me to, but I don't think I want to repost every single thing you just said, Ten, because every quote you provided sums up one thing to me: This. Is. Why. Kittypets. Should. Not. Be. Allowed. Into. Clans. I feel that it's a ridiculous notion that a kittypet would even begin to understand Clan life. Kittypet kits are debatable, but a cat of Firepaw's age when he joined was raised to believe that they should care only for themselves. That's just the kind of life a kittypet lives; I'm not saying they're selfish or that I have anything against them, just that they don't belong in a Clan.

Right. I have an article on this that I might post today, which goes into more detail about this idea.

Basically what I'm trying to say here is that Firepaw in Into The Wild is the exact same thing as Daisy from the minute she was introduced; a kittypet who doesn't belong anywhere near a Clan.

I wouldn't say he's the same thing as Daisy. If anything, he's her opposite. Daisy spends all her time in the nursery, refusing to learn how to fight or hunt, and Firepaw... Firepaw's so lacking in empathy that he can watch a cat die without emotional repercussions. They are the far extremes on a violence/nonviolence scale, which makes both of them, as you said, kittypets who don't belong anywhere near a Clan. It's just baffling, though, how Firepaw got this way at such a young age and coming from the background that he did.

Sept 1, 2012 9:08:50 GMT -6 Rolo said:

This sentence could really do with being altered to something else with a more precise meaning. Mostly because, despite what people are discussing here, Firepaw is not a sociopath. He may have a few sociopathic tendencies, but he only barely ticks 2 of the boxes out of the 5 needed in the DMV (Diagnostic manual used by psychologists), and the idea that he is a sociopath would not cross a diagnostic psychologist's mind. As a result, it sounds as if you are using 'sociopathic' as a describing word for 'apathetic', rather than treating it as a disorder with various different elements (much like the people who say 'they're so bipolar' because they're moody, or 'schizo' to mean crazy).

Ah, you're right, Rolo. This is what I get for being lazy. I'll go back and edit that.

Anyway, as for Firepaw, I have to admit I don't agree with a lot of your points, Ten. Yes, I agree that Firepaw's lack of reaction is abnormal in this scene, but I think the fault lies more with poor writing than anything else.

Oh of course. But regardless of what they meant to write, this is what they did write.

Additionally, the narrative isn't from Firepaw's perspective and Rosetail isn't a cat he knows at all, meaning he's less likely to care about her.

The narrative is in third person limited POV. Firepaw isn't telling the story, but in a sense, it is told from his perspective. Information isn't given to the reader, such as the whereabouts of Yellowfang until she ambushes him, until Firepaw knows about it. We're seeing the events more or less from his eyes. For this reason, whenever his emotions or expressions are not described, I assume that he does not have any.

As for Rosetail, how well he knows her is irrelevant. It should be shocking and disturbing to witness the murder of even a complete stranger, regardless of whether you've seen a corpse before.

In addition to this, apart from perhaps Ravenpaw (who is an exception, but only just), no other cats in the entire book show surprise or disgust or anything like that when it comes to violence.

It's not the violence itself, though. I mean, I could buy that they'd scratch each other up and be pretty unphased by it. That's one thing. In canon battles, the winner is (in every case I can remember) determined not by "who kills the most cats from the other side" but rather by "who fights the hardest and chases the other cats away". Killing is not normal for them. It has not been established anywhere as commonplace. Further, coming from a kittypet background, it should be even stranger for Firepaw to witness a murder. Even if he's just in shock at the current moment, there should have been some sort of emotional aftershock once the battle is over.

The Erins never even begin to explore how rough the life of a warrior is, or how it might impact on a character's psychology or actions... they just make it out that the cats are in this brilliant band-of-brothers kinda situation and that the fighting is of little consequence. The reality is never hard-hitting or well-represented, which has always been a major flaw in these books.

True. As anthropomorphized creatures, though, if he can feel sorrow for the death of others, it should really wig him out to see someone being murdered.

It doesn't make Firepaw any less of a bland, jerky and horribly written character, though. And it does mean that he's very unsympathetic, especially when looking at the other examples you picked out.

I'm glad you agree.

[Grey]

So, suggesting this is a character flaw with Firepaw himself doesn't feel right to me, it's a flaw of ALL the characters in the books AND the Erin's writing style. The Erins never even begin to explore how rough the life of a warrior is, or how it might impact on a character's psychology or actions... they just make it out that the cats are in this brilliant band-of-brothers kinda situation and that the fighting is of little consequence. The reality is never hard-hitting or well-represented, which has always been a major flaw in these books.

Re-reading through this article and I'd like to comment on this quote, because it's excellent. This is precisely the problem I have with almost everything Erin Hunter does, or rather, does not do. Erin Hunter wastes potential.

The other day, Ten said that the fun of Warriors is thinking about things might have been. That's paraphrased, but the general sentiment remains. I completely agree, but that leaves the question - why? Because Erin Hunter never thought about it in the first place. That's incredibly frustrating to me.

In the hands of a more talented writer, someone with an interest of how the world could work in this speculative fiction story, just imagine how good Warriors could be. Characters might have depth, the plots might actually be compelling, the implied systems could be reasonable enough not to make me fret about it. But it's that's not reality.

It's a book series written for children by a couple of people who did it just for fun and didn't put much thought into it. So instead we imagine the possibilities, and that's enjoyable in its own way.

However, Erin Hunter's lack of forethought or notable skill means that situations like this are pretty frequent.

True. As anthropomorphized creatures, though, if he can feel sorrow for the death of others, it should really wig him out to see someone being murdered.

"Should" is a dangerous word, Ten. And besides, it's one thing to say what should happen, and another to assess what actually happened. I agree with you; Firepaw needed to be written better, along with all the other characters, in order for him not to appear with sociopathic traits in that one section of one book.

Erin Hunter's poor writing style is to blame here. Because they did not build a realistic, consistent or immersive world, the actions of the characters are jarred and largely without plausible context.

It's just baffling, though, how Firepaw got this way at such a young age and coming from the background that he did.

No, it's not. It would be if the world he's in was reasonable.

You are talking about Firepaw like he's a real person-cat, not a character. He is just words by Erin Hunter. Throughout Erin Hunter's writing, Firepaw - and his subsequent forms - is the hero. He's intended to be the ideal. That's not really debatable, I think. He's not intended to be a heartless or unsympathetic monster, as you describe him to be.

Thing is, Erin Hunter hasn't done a very good job with the writing and because of that, Firepaw isn't complete or believable. Rather than convincing us that he is the "good guy" that we should like or relate to, Erin Hunter has made him a cardboard cut-out with some unexplained traits drifting about here and there.

But regardless of what they meant to write, this is what they did write.

Yes, absolutely. But look at it this way: we all know Erin Hunter is pretty awful. For you to then say, "Wowzers, Firepaw is mad fellow", is the same as you also saying, "I believe that Erin Hunter intended for Firepaw to be a mad fellow". That means you'd probably be looking at this text, reading everything as a way Erin Hunter constructed that character to be that way.

In short, you are reading Firepaw's 'sociopathy' as authorial intent. Bad writing is writing that does not achieve the author's intentions, or worse, misconstrues the author's intentions.

When I read about Firepaw's lack of empathy, I say, "Goodness, Erin Hunter, where's your head at, you unintentionally made your hero look like a mad fellow, learn some skillz, yo, before the kids start copying you". I don't ever dream that Firepaw being a bit of "mad fellow" is actually what Erin Hunter was meaning, so I just laugh, shake my head and say why the writing's not performing the intended function.

It's fair enough to point out that Firepaw looks in a bad light in this chapter, but to assert he's a sociopath isn't a good call. He's poor little Jessica Rabbit, not a monster.

And in any case, you can't really make a reliable judgment like that based on one circumstance.

A person throws a punch. The immediate reaction is the thought that the person is violent. However, it's outside of context. When you then find out that there person is a pacifist and has never attacked anyone before, and then find out that they were provoked by an aggressor, you are going to recant your assessment of their violence. As such, best not to make big leaps until you have the full picture, I think.

[Lady Ten]

Sept 15, 2012 7:55:23 GMT -6 Grey said:

"Should" is a dangerous word, Ten.

I live on the edge.

Erin Hunter's poor writing style is to blame here.

You are talking about Firepaw like he's a real person-cat, not a character.

Yes, of course.

Throughout Erin Hunter's writing, Firepaw - and his subsequent forms - is the hero. He's intended to be the ideal. That's not really debatable, I think.

Actually, since you're talking about what you think those women intended, that's more on the fuzzy side. I certainly get the same impression, yes, and I wouldn't argue with you on that, but it's not something we really have hard evidence on. I mean, it's not like a canon "fact" that we can "know for sure," you understand, unless the Erins said it outright. They might have, at some point. Might be in an interview somewhere. I don't think anyone really cares, though.

Point is, the intentions of other people are not undebateable, just on principle.

Yes, absolutely. But look at it this way: we all know Erin Hunter is pretty awful. For you to then say, "Wowzers, Firepaw is mad fellow", is the same as you also saying, "I believe that Erin Hunter intended for Firepaw to be a mad fellow".

ahahahahaha, no.

Sounds like we're looking at this through different lenses. I didn't really think to explain what kind of literary theory this was oriented from before I launched into it.

[pyro]

To judge a person's (or in this case a cat's) psyche by one isolated event is...honestly, I find it hard to believe that any 'results' gained from such an analysis would be reliable. You cannot observe a single interaction and know all there is to know about someone. Hell, most experiments require a minimum of three trials for conclusive results, with a sort of 'general' policy of the more the merrier. Even case studies feature extensive research and observation. The observer involved doesn't just go 'oh, they've been startled by a rat, guess they must have a phobia.'

Moving on.

Humans have a sympathy group of an average size of 12. As the cats within the Hunters' series are 'humanized', it is safe to assume that their sympathy groups are much the same: 12 cats whom they spend a lot of time with, care about, and would be grievously affected by their death(s). Firepaw, as a newcomer to thunderclan, has not had adequate time to amass a sympathy group of that size or particularly concrete bonds within the clan; a clan which, as I recall, was still settling around the idea of a kittypet, a foreigner in their midst. So, Firepaw has no real reason to care about Rosetail's death other than the fact that she was killed in front of him in a sudden and violent manner. No previous social attachment exists, beyond "we are in the same clan, we might have talked once or twice." Despite this, in an ordinary situation (no attack, no battle), the knee jerk reaction to a murder would/should be shock, anger, perhaps some small amount of grief upon reflection of the event. A battle, however, is not an ordinary situation. Ordinary reactions and emotions need not apply. Or at least, not what you are perceiving as the normal reactions/emotions for that situation.

Animals, humans included, are highly sensitive to their environment, much more than we relaize. Context. Is. Everything. I can tell you from personal experiences that this is true. Someone who is passive in one situation may be aggressive in another, for example, especially when others around them are emitting a negative vibe. Animals behave in much the same way. Take for example my Aunt's dog Speck. Prior to coming to our house Speck was not a barker. When alone, if the doorbell rang she would not bark, or if she did it was a quick 'alert' bark. While with our dogs though (a group notorious not only for barking but for barking longer than necessary), Speck barked. And barked. And barked. Throw my dogs outside, leave Speck alone in the house, and she would return to her normal behavior. The term 'Peer Pressure' comes to mind. But this stuff is so much more...deliciously subtle...And I'll stop right there because I'm tempted to to ramble. The point is, we behave according to the cues given by our environment. We react.

What is the clans' environment? I can tell you right now it's more than a forest with some streams. More than a decently-defined territory with boundaries and surrounding landscapes. It is the social norms and sometimes near-imperceptible cues from their fellows (in the sense that they are reacting to these cues without being conscious of it). Their environment is both physical and mental/emotional. It is everyone and everything and everyone and everything's behaviors/personalities/etc. And given their sensitivity to this environment it is important to look at the situation at hand.

It is a battle. Cats are fighting. Cats are getting wounded. And in this case, cats, or rather a cat is dying/dead. They are not stopping to lick their wounds. They are not stopping to make sure everyone is okay. They are not stopping to stare and sob at a murder.

Why?

Let's look at Bernhard Goetz. He lived in Manhattan during a time when crime rates were very high and disorder permeated the air. He was in a rat hole, in a sense. When he was confronted by four teenagers, cornered if you will, he shot them. He acted as a cornered rat. Get it? His environment was a rathole so he acted like a cornered rat, something he verified. His environment gave him the cues necessary to make him do something people don't normally do. In his own words,

"You're in a combat situation...You're not thinking in a normal way. Your memory isn't even working normally. You are so hyped up. Your vision actually changes. Your capabilities change. What you are capable of changes."

You change.

You. Change.

Firepaw changed.

So. Firepaw does not know this cat very well, if at all. No one else is falling to the ground in mourning or well, being even remotely compassionate to those around them. He is in a combat situation. There is not a lack of reaction on his part so much as there is no room for a normal reaction given by his environment. In other situations he has exhibited normal reactions and contrary to your previous statements emotion: attacking Yellowfang (an intruder), grief for Redtail, anger toward Tigerclaw, pride in the loss of his collar, curiosity when he approached the forest...if he was truly an emotionless husk then there would be more consistency with his reactions, or you know, no reactions. Ever. From what I recall, he displays emotions and reacts far more often than he doesn't.

tldr; His reaction is appropriate for a combat situation.


Now, on the matter of the actual writing of Rosetail's death I can be a little more brief. No she didn't struggle. Freaking...my god....the quote says "The ShadowClan deputy made quick work of killing the elder". The longer you draw out a scene like that the more clunky and sluggish the writing. When you're writing a battle you need to be quick and concise. Quick. And. Concise. I'm not going to sit here and pretend the Hunters are the most talented writers to hit this earth since God knows when. But for pete's sake not every single tiny last bit of their writing is a mistake or utter crap. The deputy made quick work of the murder. There was no struggle. Big strong deputy vs withered elder. Yeah. Yeah I was really shocked when they didn't give readers two pages of ninjacatjitsu off the walls battling. Quick work. You said yourself to look at what the author's written and not what they intended. Well they've written a quick murder. No written struggle? No swankin' struggle.

[celestialsquared]

On the subject of Rosetail's death I think it is because that scene was only to serve one purpose: To introduce Blackfoot as a character. Perhaps Erin Hunter forgot about how someone would react if they saw this in real life and therefore it resulted in an unrealistic situation.
So mostly, Erin's bad storytelling skills is to blame for this.

Also, isn't Firepaw just displaying the typical stereotype of an adolescent? Arrogant and ready to fight? Sounds like a typical teenage boy to me.

[Lady Ten]

Sept 29, 2012 22:22:57 GMT -6 pyro said:

To judge a person's (or in this case a cat's) psyche by one isolated event is...honestly, I find it hard to believe that any 'results' gained from such an analysis would be reliable.

Right.

Humans have a sympathy group of an average size of 12.

I am not sure what you mean by this and have not seen this term used before. Could you explain a bit?

So, Firepaw has no real reason to care about Rosetail's death other than the fact that she was killed in front of him in a sudden and violent manner.

Right, I wouldn't expect any personal kind of connection.

The point is, we behave according to the cues given by our environment. We react.

Certainly.

Despite this, in an ordinary situation (no attack, no battle), the knee jerk reaction to a murder would/should be shock, anger, perhaps some small amount of grief upon reflection of the event. A battle, however, is not an ordinary situation. Ordinary reactions and emotions need not apply. Or at least, not what you are perceiving as the normal reactions/emotions for that situation.

Firepaw changed.

So. Firepaw does not know this cat very well, if at all. No one else is falling to the ground in mourning or well, being even remotely compassionate to those around them. He is in a combat situation.

This being such an un-ordinary, unfamiliar situation for him, one he must quickly adjust to, there would no doubt be an impact the first time he finds himself dealing with that environment. I don't think there's one way to handle that. However, it's a very jarring, possibly traumatizing experience for a new warrior (especially with his background), something that would cause a shift in their life or a change in their perspectives or something, just, you know, a turning point. You don't go into that and come through it the same, I'd think. So, as a reader, I expect that if he doesn't go into shock in that present moment, then he would somehow deal with it in the aftermath, when he had the time and opportunity to reflect or for his emotions to catch up with him. In his first battle, Firepaw would have to change, you're right. So where is the evidence of this? Maybe I need to reread the scene again, but he seems to be viewing the situation the same way he's viewed everything else before; his perspective is presented as very static.

There is not a lack of reaction on his part so much as there is no room for a normal reaction given by his environment.

Now on that, I'd disagree. It doesn't say "there was no time for him to help" or that there are any physical impediments to him reaching her in time to make a difference -- which might imply that the idea occurs to him or that he would have tried. Granted, it doesn't say that there is time, either (that's just an impression I got from the pace of the writing) but it doesn't exclude the possibility.

I'm not going to sit here and pretend the Hunters are the most talented writers to hit this earth since God knows when. But for pete's sake not every single tiny last bit of their writing is a mistake or utter crap.

This is true. This is why I'm on the site, actually.

Sept 30, 2012 9:46:30 GMT -6 celestialsquared said:

On the subject of Rosetail's death I think it is because that scene was only to serve one purpose: To introduce Blackfoot as a character.

In terms of Erin's outside purposes, yes, of course.

Also, isn't Firepaw just displaying the typical stereotype of an adolescent? Arrogant and ready to fight? Sounds like a typical teenage boy to me.

I'd rather we not essentialize.

[Rolo]

Oct 2, 2012 15:51:39 GMT -6 Lady Ten said:

Sept 29, 2012 22:22:57 GMT -6 pyro said:

This being such an un-ordinary, unfamiliar situation for him, one he must quickly adjust to, there would no doubt be an impact the first time he finds himself dealing with that environment. I don't think there's one way to handle that. However, it's a very jarring, possibly traumatizing experience for a new warrior (especially with his background), something that would cause a shift in their life or a change in their perspectives or something, just, you know, a turning point. You don't go into that and come through it the same, I'd think. So, as a reader, I expect that if he doesn't go into shock in that present moment, then he would somehow deal with it in the aftermath, when he had the time and opportunity to reflect or for his emotions to catch up with him. In his first battle, Firepaw would have to change, you're right. So where is the evidence of this? Maybe I need to reread the scene again, but he seems to be viewing the situation the same way he's viewed everything else before; his perspective is presented as very static.


Now on that, I'd disagree. It doesn't say "there was no time for him to help" or that there are any physical impediments to him reaching her in time to make a difference -- which might imply that the idea occurs to him or that he would have tried. Granted, it doesn't say that there is time, either (that's just an impression I got from the pace of the writing) but it doesn't exclude the possibility.

Ten, you're being very deterministic in terms of dictating his behaviour. His background and age, while big influencers in how individuals deal with things, do not dictate how any individual should act in a certain way. As I said in my previous post, he has already been posed with the issue of death and killing (albeit vicariously, through hearing about it from Ravenpaw). It is very possible he has come to terms with the idea of death through those, and as we've already stated, he had little emotional links to this particular cat. I don't mean to be dim and suggest that the TYPICAL response to seeing someone killed is muted emotional reaction, but it's possible that he doesn't comprehend death as a concept and so it hasn't impacted on him quite the same way as it would. Which would also explain other aspects of his behaviour. Furthermore, it could be the clan setting itself that could be producing that lack of response to death, which would be a normal part of clan life, which is why it's important to look at other character's response to death too. We need to know whether he is the exception and not the norm. After all, I don't recall hearing about one cat in the clan who expressed that they'd been disturbed by seeing the violence or murder in the book beyond mourning, except Ravenpaw who had a wealth of other issues to account for that.

Your argument that he has been cold through the entire thing lacks evidence and context. We need evidence of the aftermath of that situation. I recall that there was a scene where Rosetail's death was pointed, and the warriors dealt with it. Was it followed up there? As Pyro said, you're drawing a lot of observations from one minuscule sentence, and whether that reaction is realistic, abnormal or reasonable, it doesn't have a huge impact on the point you're trying to make. Drawing it back to the overall argument you're making, that Firepaw is emotionless and cold, your current argument does not have enough evidence to make a sensible conclusion.

Therefore, I suggest that, for the discussion to move on, Firepaw's reactions to other deaths/traumatic situations, need to be studied as well as the reactions of other clan members to death. That way we will take the discussion past 'Isn't this a bit weird?' to actual discussion of Firepaw's fundamental character.

[Lady Ten]

Oct 2, 2012 18:28:28 GMT -6 Rolo said:

I don't mean to be dim and suggest that the TYPICAL response to seeing someone killed is muted emotional reaction, but it's possible that he doesn't comprehend death as a concept and so it hasn't impacted on him quite the same way as it would. Which would also explain other aspects of his behaviour.

hm. That's a good point. He is very young, and I know it's not the same for all, but that could be a factor.

Furthermore, it could be the clan setting itself that could be producing that lack of response to death, which would be a normal part of clan life, which is why it's important to look at other character's response to death too.

Now that's an explanation I'm more hesitant to accept. He hasn't been in the Clan long enough to have totally assimilated into their culture -- some even account for his behavior as leader by pointing to his kittypet upraising. While it may be that witnessing a murder is less upsetting for a numbed Clan cat, Firepaw isn't fully part of that culture.

We need evidence of the aftermath of that situation. I recall that there was a scene where Rosetail's death was pointed, and the warriors dealt with it. Was it followed up there?

That's true, there is a scene like that. I don't have the book on hand, or I'd type it up for you. Can anyone help out here?

Anyway, that's nice context, but that's a different situation. That's just acknowledging that a Clanmate has died, which would be more about the Clan's personal connection to her (which, we've established, Firepaw does not have) than it would be about the psychological effects of watching another cat violently die. Then again, examining Firepaw's perspective in that moment would also demonstrate whether he further reflected on any part of that experience.