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Post by Lady Ten on Aug 31, 2012 10:21:23 GMT -6
The usual justification for using "Wolf" as a prefix is that such-and-such Clan lives nearby some wolves. I'm wondering how realistic y'all think it would be for a clowder to share a territory with a wolf pack, or any larger predator, really, such as a mountain lion or bear (no canon examples, please). It's not unknown for coyotes to eat cats, and given that and the fact that wolves will also eat other smaller animals such as rabbits and foxes, it seems like a Clan would make easy pickings. Maybe they wouldn't get wiped out all at once, but wouldn't they be preyed upon? Which larger predators do you think a Clan would be able to live alongside, and which do you think would eventually eat them all? |
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drheiter
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Post by drheiter on Aug 31, 2012 14:43:41 GMT -6
Oh gosh, what I'm about to say is barely relevant, but it's such a horror story that I can't resist sharing.
I roleplay in a virtual world-type place designed for kids, and you create your character as an animal. I guess at some point a few people figured out that since you can create cats, you could roleplay Warriors. Since this place was never meant for roleplaying, there are no rules, and the ideas people come up with make me question their sanity.
A growing thing among this community is having a wolf pack affiliated with one's Clan. They actually have wolves sharing a den with the warriors. They have apprentice-aged wolves in the apprentices' den. They even share a nursery. They hunt, and yes, fight together. These wolf roleplayers don't even battle against other Clans' wolf packs. They fight the actual cats. It's so ridiculous, a real wolf could step on a cat and the cat would be dead.
I know this wasn't really contributing anything (I seem to be leaving a lot of unimportant comments around here lately), but I couldn't resist sharing.
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Post by mistytail on Aug 31, 2012 15:58:35 GMT -6
I'm not too sure if the Clans could deal with large predators like wolves. They have more than enough trouble with foxes, badgers, snakes, hawks, owls, and other small-to-medium carnivores. Consider also that the most the Clans seem to be able to do about their problem is to chase away intruders into each others' territory. They aren't strong enough to kill them, nor can they effectively keep them out of their own territory. A wolf pack would probably rip them to pieces.
While I do actually like wolf- as a prefix and wish it could be used, it's just not likely. The biggest animals we'll probably have as prefixes for cats are lion-, tiger-, and leopard-, and the Clans hardly even know what they are.
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vbfdoee
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Post by vbfdoee on Sept 3, 2012 13:31:13 GMT -6
Not only would a wolf pack outright kill a group of feral cats, they would compete for prey as well. There seems to be a common misconception that wolves only hunt large prey such as deer; wolves can and do hunt mouse- to rabbit-sized animals. In areas where their ranges overlap, wolves also hunt Pallas's cats (domestic-cat sized wildcats that live in Central Asia). Make of that what you will.
In response to the question posed by Ten in the OP, I'd say that a red fox would be the largest predator with which a clowder could possibly coexist. Having an adult fox on their territory would, however, be very dangerous to a clan.
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CATION
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Post by CATION on Sept 7, 2012 18:02:34 GMT -6
Not only would a wolf pack outright kill a group of feral cats, they would compete for prey as well.
This.
Even if the cats somehow found a way to avoid being on the menu, they'd still have larger carnivores to compete with on top of finding prey that may already be scarce, depending on the season.
Also, if there are more wolves in the area, that may mean that they attract more scavengers that follow them around for leftovers; think vultures, hawks, or eagles. Think about what that means for all of your little apprentices and kits.
And as Mistytail said, how would the Clans keep wolves out of their territory? There are no fighting techniques they have that would work, and they can't exactly ally themselves with any bigger animal to help them out. And those are just wolves - what would it be like if they lived with bears?
As a personal story, when I lived in Colorado, we had this ginger cat who pretty much came and went as she pleased. We didn't really think anything of it, because she always came back. Now, at the same time, we lived close to a wooded area where we would hear coyotes howl every night. And this cat, who we had for close to nine years, left one afternoon and never came back. I can't say what happened to her for sure, but there were stories frequently in the news about how coyotes and mountain lions would attack pets that were left out by their owners, so I wouldn't be surprised if that's what happened to her.
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Mimi
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Post by Mimi on Oct 12, 2012 0:58:37 GMT -6
I think the best justification one can constitute for wolf- is if one decides to meta it into the back story of the clans and thus have it work like cheetah- and tiger-. One could maybe get away with a lone wolf passing through, but yeah, you can't have a pack or family living nearby and expect the cats to live. A coyote or two in the area would be bad enough if you're doing non-England (and should be the main reason cats die; everyone would get eaten by coyotes, I swear). Wolfs would be a terror given raccoons and badgers can already kill cats.
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saphirabunny
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Post by saphirabunny on Oct 12, 2012 22:54:49 GMT -6
But just because they don't have wolves living near them that doesn't mean that they haven't heard of them if they are in an area where wolves can be found. It's quite possible for cats to run into a wolf pack if the wolves are changing their territory because there isn't enough prey. No I don't believe that they can co-exist in the same area, but just because the wolves are not living there doesn't mean that the cats have never hear of wolves, whether it's from loners who joined the clan, news from outside the clan, or in clan lore from previous encounters.
As for the largest predator they could coexist with? Possibly a fox, but I doubt they would put up with it if some of the canon examples of how foxes and badgers interact with cats are any indication. So the predators that could live in Clan territory without the Clans driving them out would probably be smaller ones like snakes or birds like hawks and eagles.
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Post by Grey on Oct 12, 2012 23:08:58 GMT -6
Why would they use a prefix for something none of them have even seen? The whole idea of a prefix is to represent the cat's appearance - so you choose a legendary creature some random from somewhere else told you about? Yeah, I'm not sold on that.
If there's a clan-based understanding of wolves (such as the lion, tiger, leopard one in canon) and they have stories or whatever about them, that changes it a bit. That's far more reasonable. Of course, wolves would be a terror for the clans and probably considered somewhat godlike, so I doubt they would use it as a prefix then - it could be considered like moon- or sun-, or disrespectful to the wolf and/or cat. Tiger-, lion- and leopard- are used in canon because the cats don't actually share a territory with them. If the cats did, they'd probably all be dead.
I am pretty sure any way you spin wolf-, it ends up being a bad choice. If you're going by a traditional setting, there's no wolves in England; if your clan shares a territory with wolves, they're dead cats walking. If you clan hears about wolves from travellers, why would they use some mythic creature for a prefix; if your clan knows about wolves through some kind of lore, they are likely to fear and/or revere them and consider it a sacred term.
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saphirabunny
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Post by saphirabunny on Oct 12, 2012 23:19:27 GMT -6
Why would they use a prefix for something none of them have even seen? The whole idea of a prefix is to represent the cat's appearance - so you choose a legendary creature some random from somewhere else told you about? Yeah, I'm not sold on that. If there's a clan-based understanding of wolves (such as the lion, tiger, leopard one in canon) and they have stories or whatever about them, that changes it a bit. That's far more reasonable. Of course, wolves would be a terror for the clans and probably considered somewhat godlike, so I doubt they would use it as a prefix then - it could be considered like moon- or sun-, or disrespectful to the wolf and/or cat. Tiger-, lion- and leopard- are used in canon because the cats don't actually share a territory with them. If the cats did, they'd probably all be dead. I am pretty sure any way you spin wolf-, it ends up being a bad choice. If you're going by a traditional setting, there's no wolves in England; if your clan shares a territory with wolves, they're dead cats walking. If you clan hears about wolves from travellers, why would they use some mythic creature for a prefix; if your clan knows about wolves through some kind of lore, they are likely to fear and/or revere them and consider it a sacred term. Just because they have a respect for another creature doesn't mean that they would revere it. I don't see it that way. I don't think that the Tribe cats revered the mountain lion, the Clan cats never revered dogs either and I think it would be the same with the Clans and wolves. True they probably won't use the prefix if they never saw the creature. That was streaching it on my part, but I think that if the clan was say, in North America living near like Yellow Stone Park, they could have encounters with stray wolves. The wolves and cats don't have to be in the EXACT same territory. It's just like cats don't perpetually share territory with badgers, but they do see them and have them come into the territory from time to time. Yes, in an ENGLISH setting they don't belong there I agree. There are other places in the world where wolves exist and Clans could live. |
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Post by Grey on Oct 12, 2012 23:29:43 GMT -6
If it's part of the clan's lore, I suspect it will have connotations of being somewhat sacred.
True. Of course, wolves aren't just one colour, so you could run into a spot of trouble there.
Did you really need to capitalise that? I don't think anyone was debating the existence of wolves in England or the possibility of clans outside of England.
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saphirabunny
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Post by saphirabunny on Oct 12, 2012 23:56:53 GMT -6
If it's part of the clan's lore, I suspect it will have connotations of being somewhat sacred. Oh I wasn't talking about clan lore. Hmm... if it's lore then yeah you're right. When I was typing that I was thinking more of elders were telling stories of wolves when the clan could have encountered it. True. Of course, wolves aren't just one colour, so you could run into a spot of trouble there. Yeah that is another problem to deal with. I know that's one of several reasons you personally don't recommend it. Did you really need to capitalise that? I don't think anyone was debating the existence of wolves in England or the possibility of clans outside of England. Yes I did feel it was necessary to put emphasis on that. You were the one who brought up England when, like you said, no one was talking about it. |
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Post by Grey on Oct 13, 2012 2:28:41 GMT -6
I'm aware of that. What I don't understand is why you capitalised it. Would I forget which country I mentioned? Unlikely. Would I understand 'English' if it were written without full caps? Highly likely. Italics emphasise, capitals shout.
If it's because elders are talking about that one time such-and-such saw a wolf, I don't think it qualifies as sacred in any way. If wolves are part of the clan's significant history or religious beliefs, I think wolf- wouldn't be used. That's all I was saying.
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Mimi
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Post by Mimi on Oct 13, 2012 21:19:12 GMT -6
If it's because elders are talking about that one time such-and-such saw a wolf, I don't think it qualifies as sacred in any way. If wolves are part of the clan's significant history or religious beliefs, I think wolf- wouldn't be used. That's all I was saying. But why are lion- and tiger- used then? Their used in the books and out is based on an understanding that those were the ancient clans. |
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Post by celestialsquared on Oct 13, 2012 22:30:15 GMT -6
If it's because elders are talking about that one time such-and-such saw a wolf, I don't think it qualifies as sacred in any way. If wolves are part of the clan's significant history or religious beliefs, I think wolf- wouldn't be used. That's all I was saying. But why are lion- and tiger- used then? Their used in the books and out is based on an understanding that those were the ancient clans. The story of the big cats clans is a myth. There's nothing sacred or significant about TigerClan or LionClan; it's just a piece of folklore to tell to little kits. Moon-, however, holds real significance because is directly connected the the clan's religious beliefs and is only used for things revolving around StarClan (Moonstone/Moonpool). Therefore, it shouldn't be used. |
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Post by Grey on Oct 13, 2012 22:56:08 GMT -6
This is perfect.
As I said - if the elders just talk about wolves, then there's reason to use wolf- as a prefix. If wolves are a significant part of clan-lore or belief system, then you wouldn't.
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