the -flower suffix [+Content Warning]

[Lady Ten]

I hope Misty doesn't mind me quoting her here, because she posted something very interesting on another thread.

Aug 30, 2012 8:47:34 GMT -6 @mistytail said:

-Flower: an extremely maternal or paternal personality, -flower cats are exceptionally good mentors. They are unafraid to show affection for others, and truly see the Clan as a family unit. Their loyalty is unquestionable and they are very focused on defending others and keeping the Clan fed. Toms with this suffix are extremely rare, as it has mever occurred in canon, but I believe it is possible.

On occasion I've idly wondered why there should be a "motherly" suffix (as -flower is so often interpreted) if there's not a "fatherly" suffix, and viewing "flower" as both maternal and paternal is a unique solution to address this discrepancy. Also, as she notes, there may not be any canon toms with this suffix, but I know there are roleplayers who have used it on male characters before (albeit for different reasons) and I see no problem with this.

Flower is an odd case in that almost everyone but the strictest one-part traditionalists will accept it as a reasonable choice, but there's a vast variety in its interpretations, and it's one of the few that I myself am quite flexible on.

As a third-style namer and analyst, I interpret the suffix as indicating a flowery personality, which is not necessarily motherly. I don't oppose its application for motherly characters, though I do start flipping tables when people act like it's the designated queen suffix or that it should be given to timid little spineless "feminine" whelps. There are a lot of associations of femininity wrapped up in the symbolism of flowers, and there are a lot of damaging stereotypes wrapped up in many people's conception of femininity, so it's difficult for the fandom to come to a consensus on this one. How do y'all interpret the suffix? Why do you think the cats would view it that way?

[mistytail]

Wow, I got quoted in a thread-starting post. I feel so honored!! ;; <33

See, I think the tricky thing about naming a cat, especially in a style that focuses on combining two already-existing words to make a one-word name, is that there are lots of different layers and symbolisms to every word. The words we use as prefixes and suffixes for warrior names are not limited to their dictionary denotations. More often than not, they carry certain connotations that can't really be shaken when discussing how they should be used in a name.

That's why the -flower suffix is so interesting. From early childhood, we are taught that flowers are for girls. We humans have a bit of the -flower suffix syndrome ourselves; would anyone dream of naming their son Daisy, Rose, or Hazel? These are simply the names of plants, unintelligent life forms without a gender. And yet, if you were to introduce the new boy in school as "Ivy," people would have a fit. They would insist that he would be confused, that he would be gay, and that he should have his name legally changed to something more masculine. But no one thinks to question why the names of flowers and plants are considered feminine and off-limits for boys.

I could be a very huge windbag here considering I love art, and the topic of gender in art history is very interesting (and as I pursue a minor in Women's Studies, hopefully I'll be able to give more concrete information off the top of my head), but let's just get through this part as quickly as possible. So, art history lesson: Everything flowery is a vagina. No, don't question it. All vaginas. They have lips (the petals), they have an entry point where things are inserted (bees or butterflies in their pollen), and they give life (BABIES~!). The physical resemblance to the vagina is probably how flowers came to be a symbol of femininity in the first place, and it has been that way for a very, very, very long time. Is it sort of a dumb idea to cling to? Yeah. I don't see flowers bleeding for a solid week every month, and I will cry of laughter the day some drunk person mistakes a pitcher plant for a pretty feminine thing to play with.

NOW. To actually get back on the topic at hand.

Because flowers are seen as symbols of femininity, the -flower suffix will, understandably, make people think of a female cat. No matter how "tough" you try to make a male cat sound - stick the -flower suffix on him, and he's done. Withiut anything more than the name, everyone and their mother will assume it is a female. Seriously, try it. Stoneflower, Mudflower, Fireflower, even a heinously awful name like Bloodflower - nope. No scrap of masculinity to be found there. Because when people hear "flower," their mind goes not just to the little Dasies and Ivys and Hazels of grade-school in pigtails and pink dresses, but it also goes back to all the paintings and other art forms that have subconciously told them "EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THESE FLOWERS IS ACTUALLY A VAGINA YOU ARE LOOKING AT A FIELD OF VAGINAS FEMINE VAGINAS ARE YOU GETTING THE SYMBOLISM YET NO OK LET'S STICK A BEE IN THERE-" ... You get the idea. I apologize if that was vulgar, I am incredibly tired right now and if this part needs to be altered, feel free to let me know. I promise I'm not trying to start trouble. <3

Whike the idea that a cat with the -flower suffix would, and in some people's minds, should be a feminine suffix and reserved for female cats only... Does this actually make sense for the Warriors world? Plants, at least as far as we can tell, have no significance to warriors outside of being used as medicine. They simply do not carry the same societal implications for cats than they do for humans. So, if we are talking about a leader naming a cat of his or her Clan... It's actually not that unreasonable for a tom to be given the -flower suffix, as flowers mean significantly more to the Clans tban just "vaginas and femininity."

What do flowers mean to warrior cats? As stated above, they are used as medicine. They are tools of healing and mending the sick and wounded, something a good warrior should do. Their purpose is not only to attack the enemy and kill prey, but to defend their Clanmates and keep them safe. Flowers are also one of the first signs of spring, a universal sign of new life. While this aspect of flowers may of course be applied to motherhood, in a way, training an apprentice is a form of caring for and ensuring new life in the Clan. Mentoring is a skill often looked over as we tend to see books from the point of view from apprentices being trained rather than a mentor. (There have been exceptions, such as with Firestar's mentoring of Cinderpelt and Cloudtail, but we don't see too much one-on-one mentor-to-apprentice narration.)

Therefore, I stand by my belief that a male cat that has a paternal personality and seems to have the makings of a good mentor (say, is often seen teaching the kits basic skills, something apprentices are seen doing in the background of a story often but never for more than a sentence or two), he can, and perhaps should be given the suffix -flower, not only because it can fit him just as much as a devoted queen, but also to challenge the reader's ideas of femininity and strength.

I am sorry for being such a gasbag oh my god

[Lady Ten]

Okay, wow, did not think I would need to be adding a Content Warning to this. Not so soon, anyway. Well, carrying on.

Aug 30, 2012 20:32:44 GMT -6 @mistytail said:

No, don't question it.

Why?

The physical resemblance to the vagina is probably how flowers came to be a symbol of femininity in the first place, and it has been that way for a very, very, very long time.

Which is why their overuse in clothing and decor meant for women can really creep me out.

I definitely agree with you on all that stuff about connotations, though. Thanks for writing so much.

Whike the idea that a cat with the -flower suffix would, and in some people's minds, should be a feminine suffix and reserved for female cats only... Does this actually make sense for the Warriors world? Plants, at least as far as we can tell, have no significance to warriors outside of being used as medicine. They simply do not carry the same societal implications for cats than they do for humans.

That's what I'm thinking too. However, considering others might argue differently, I suppose it depends on where you place the Clans on the sliding scale of anthropomorphism.

[mistytail]

Aw, darn, sorry for creating the first content warning on the site. D8 My bad :c Do you want me to go back and edit it?

Also, sorry for the "don't question it" line - my bad on that one. When I was writing it I thought I was being hilarious but it actually doesn't make sense, or worse, suggests I'm the only one that can be right on that subject. Completely unintentional :c

But yes, I would agree on the anthropomorophism spectrum statement. Some may try to anthropomorphize the Clans as little as possible, while others, like the Erins themselves, make them like small caricatures of people trapped in tiny, furry bodies. I would suppose it depends on how much "human" emotion a writer is willing to give their interpetation of Clan life.

[Lady Ten]

No, it's fine. It had to happen at some point. Please don't change the post; you're actually making a point in an argument there, and a valid one at that, not just spamming us up with sextalk.

Also, sorry for the "don't question it" line - my bad on that one.

As I said in my self-introduction, I like asking questions. :3 Any orders not to tends to draw that out in me. Still, why do you think it is you've been taught "don't question it"? Because it's so ubiquitous an interpretation?

while others, like the Erins themselves, make them like small caricatures of people trapped in tiny, furry bodies.

Or not trapped in them, considering how human some of their mannerisms and physical actions are. But that's a topic for another thread, as well.

Anyway, even if you consider the cats fully human in mentality, they're still in the bodies of cats and would have, to some degree, a culture different from our own, if only as a result of how they're made and how they live. It doesn't make sense to expect them to have the exact same cultural backgrounds and viewpoints as our own. We can impose our own impressions of flowers and femininity on them, but not to its full extent.

[mistytail]

Also, sorry for the "don't question it" line - my bad on that one.

As I said in my self-introduction, I like asking questions. :3 Any orders not to tends to draw that out in me. Still, why do you think it is you've been taught "don't question it"? Because it's so ubiquitous an interpretation?

Haha, okay, cool Yes, it is a pretty ubiquitous interpetation. Almost all instances of flowers are used to represent the vagina and femininity as a result. It's so overused that honestly, even if it wasn't the artist's intent, you could argue "This flower is used to represent femininity and vaginas" and still be considered right. (Personally I'd like to see some manly vaginas and feminine penises in art now that we're learning that biological sex =/= gender, but that's another topic for another day.)

Anyway, even if you consider the cats fully human in mentality, they're still in the bodies of cats and would have, to some degree, a culture different from our own, if only as a result of how they're made and how they live. It doesn't make sense to expect them to have the exact same cultural backgrounds and viewpoints as our own. We can impose our own impressions of flowers and femininity on them, but not to its full extent.

Definitely agree with you on this. In fact, I might go so far as to say that the idea of femininity within the canon changes severely over time. In the first series, even very pretty, feminine she-cats like Willowpelt and Brindleface are for the most part very similar to their tom counterparts - they are logical and not overly-concerned with being in love, and percieve kitting as a duty. I wouldn't doubt they love their children in the least, but in the first series at least, it wasn't a big deal to get pregnant and have babies. It was just something that happened, something that interrupted your warrior duties that you would go back to when your kits were given mentors.

Now, who mates with who is a pretty huge deal and is often the cause of major conflict (Hello, entire underlying plot of Power of Three, how are you?), and queens seem to never LEAVE the nursery once they get in there. It would seem that the moment the kits stop suckling, the mother gets knocked up just in time to go right back in and keep having kittens. Motherhood itself is the duty now, not being a warrior and a mother. This has probably screwed with what readers view as a queen's behavior, and thus, who can be given the -flower suffix and why. By slowly detracting from what we as readers were once given as the norm for this society, our perception of what the cats themselves see as feminine and masculine is skewed.

[Grey]

I’ve been tentative about posting on this thread, but as I do condone the use of –flower and use it as well, it’s only reasonable for me to come out of the woodwork and say why. I’ll try to make it brief.

I think that the human obsession with flowers as a representation of femininity is irrelevant to the application and meaning of this suffix. This suffix, after all, is for cats.

Cats, I assume, do not give each other flowers as a sign of affection (or, following the Victorian fondness for the coded language of flowers, any kind of emotion) and they do not have an artistic history to develop the subconscious connotations of the flower. As Mistytail pointed out, flowers are generally used as medicine and that’s the extent of their practical use to the clans.

The assumption that –flower should be for girls simply because the general human population have preconceived notions of gender is preposterous.

That said, I believe –flower to be the only gender-specific suffix in existence, and that it represents an excellent mother – not, however, a cat like Daisy.

The reason for this is largely botanical, not based around human society.

These are simply the names of plants, unintelligent life forms without a gender.

Wrong. This is a common misconception. Flowers, as you pointed out, are the reproductive organs of most plants. They are not, however, genderless. There are male and female plants, as well as hermaphroditic ones. An overwhelming number of plants produce flowers to reproduce, whether by wind pollination or insect activity, and use the genetic material collected to generate their seeds, often encased in cone or fruit of some form. Seeds are then dispersed in a variety of ways and, with luck, will germinate and grow into another plant.

Sorry for the elementary biology lesson, but it is relevant to what I am trying to say because there is absolutely no way the cats of the clans would not have noticed this trend. They would be highly aware of the lives of the plants around them. Perhaps I am optimistic in saying this, but I think they would understand that nothing in nature is without a significant purpose – they’re feral cats, after all. They should know that no energy is expended unnecessarily.

So flowers are obviously an important – if not the most important – part of a plant’s creation of the next generation, and that is translated to the feline equivalent: the mother (or queen, if you want to use Warriors terminology).

Toms are necessary as well, there’s no denying that. Let’s face it, though – they don’t do much. Male cats have little to nothing to do with caring or raising offspring after the fact. That is entirely the mother’s duty until they are weaned and able to start fending for themselves.

In the world of Warriors, the cats are anthropomorphised to be more relatable to our human perspectives. This has many benefits, socially speaking. It means that many toms do have an active interest in raising kittens (which is great for breaking down human gender stereotypes) and that incest and likewise unpleasant things, such as infanticide (which is very commonplace in cats), do not happen. There are also negatives to this invasion of human ideologies, as was discussed in ‘the queen effect’.

I am digressing again...

In short, toms – for all they may be represented as interested* in their offspring’s development in canon – do not get pregnant, give birth or raise kittens to six or so moons of age. They might help but they certainly can’t take much credit for the success of any litters.

Yes, -flower could be used to represent an excellent mentor and a particular type of personality, but I really don’t think that’s the best meaning for the suffix. To me, -flower is a suffix venerating the purely female ability to actually create another life and the ability to successfully bring about the future of the clan.

Any she-cat can do this (assuming they aren’t impeded by illness or other factors) but some are certainly much better at it than others, I think. Some she-cats definitely want to have kittens, and have known always known that fact from a young age. Subsequently, they may take a particular interest in caring for or learning about younger cats, and may excel in dealing with others. I don’t think –flower is the designated queen suffix, because not every mother will have it, and neither will every she-cat with the –flower suffix spend their life in nursery.

I just think it’s kind of, almost, devaluing the significance of motherhood by giving the –flower suffix to a tom. It makes more sense to me to give a gender-specific skill or trait a gender-specific suffix to match, especially when the skill/trait (for lack of a better word) is one of such vital importance to the clan.

So much for brief, my apologies.

*RE: toms interested/actively raising kittens. To my knowledge, there are no actual examples of this in the first three arcs. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

Toms have been shown to be proud of their litters, excited to see them and visit them on occasion, but I don’t believe a tom has ever actually been on nursery duty as the queens are. Take that as you will. It could be that, as the toms are physically incapable of providing any kind of sustenance for the kits, they are unnecessary in the nursery – or it could be that Erin Hunter forgot to write it in, who knows? Not I, that is for certain.

[Grey]

I was reading over these old posts, and this made me curious.

As a third-style namer and analyst, I interpret the suffix as indicating a flowery personality, which is not necessarily motherly.

So I did a little research, and I think you might want to reconsider third-style's approach to -flower, Ten. It just doesn't make logical sense, so far as I can see.

I'll start with my Australian Collins Dictionary & Thesaurus and go from there. According to this book, the definition of "flowery" is: 1. decorated by a floral design. 2. elaborate.

Obviously the first needs to be disregarded, but the thought of an "elaborate" cat seemed a bit hazy to me. I had a look at synonyms and they include "ornate, baroque, embellished, fancy, florid". As such, it looks as though "flowery" is really more of an artistic state than a personality one. You might be able to have a flowery curtain or a flowery hat, but a flowery cat, I'm not certain about that.

I took into consideration the fact my book may be outdated, since it was printed in 2005, so I went looking for alternatives.

Google says that the adjective "flowery" is either something that is "full of, resembling, or smelling of flowers" (I don't think this is what you mean?), or text/speech that is "full of elaborate or literary words or phrases".

I think this is what you might be aiming for? A grandiose, rather pompous and/or talkative cat? If the subjects in question were human, I would say that makes sense, but these are feral cats and there's a fundamental flaw in third-style's approach to adding a -y in this case.

Third-style says that a cat with the suffix -storm has a "stormy" personality - in other words, a personality with the qualities of a storm.

But a cat with the suffix -flower does not have the qualities of a flower. "Flowery", in this instance, means rhetorical eloquence and elegance. Adding a -y changes the meaning a lot.

In short, the word "flowery" would not even be in the vocabulary of the cats. I am quite certain the concept would be alien to them. How does a flower equal a cat who speaks persuasively? There is no logical connection that I can see between the word and the meaning for the clan cats.

It's a semantic point, yes, but I think it's kind of important. There's not much sense in using a word cats wouldn't use as the basis of a suffix.