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Exile
Nov 28, 2012 16:20:22 GMT -6
Post by Lady Ten on Nov 28, 2012 16:20:22 GMT -6
That is, banishment, giving the boot, whatever you'd like to call a leader's decision to revoke a cat's Clan membership license. When is it justified? When is it not? Are there instances where you could understand or sympathize with a leader wanting to exile a cat even if you wouldn't approve of the choice? Do you think there are some cats that absolutely shouldn't be exiled -- such as elders or kits? What about apprentices, who haven't finished their training? What should be done about a medicine cat who has committed a banishment-worthy offense?
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Exile
Dec 10, 2012 19:51:44 GMT -6
Post by Grey on Dec 10, 2012 19:51:44 GMT -6
I'm really not sure what would be worth a banishment, and canon doesn't seem to offer much help there. The only events of banishment I can remember was when Yellowfang was ousted from Shadowclan (due to the fact they thought she murdered kittens), and when Brokenstar and fellows were chased out with the aid of Thunderclan.
Both of these are linked to the deaths of young cats - Yellowfang, because she was accused of murder, and Brokenstar, whose clan generally resented him because he allowed kittens to train too early (and subsequently, many died).
So I'm thinking the most unforgivable things that a cat can do is kill another cat, especially a kitten. (By that logic, Bluestar is very bad as well?)
Even traitors are dealt with lighter than that - Greystripe is, arguably, a traitor to Thunderclan for "falling in love" and having kits with the Riverclan she-cat, Silverstream. Yet he wasn't driven from Thunderclan and while Riverclan didn't exactly welcome him with open arms, he really didn't appear to suffer all that much retribution for his actions. So, while cross-clan love affairs and friendships are supposed to be against the warrior code, I can't call to mind an event where there has actually been a punishment?
Crowfeather and Leafpool are a particularly forbidden example. Crowfeather still ends up with a mate and a kit (Nightcloud and their son, Breezepelt), and while Windclan might look at him from the corner of their eyes, he's still a clan cat with all the benefits that come with it.
Leafpool - I honestly can't remember if she got in trouble for anything? She was a medicine cat, so rather than being scolded doubly for her misdemeanors, she's too valuable to be lost and is forgiven? She's also the leader's daughter, and I think that has something to do with it as well.
Actually, thinking back, it seems that - for the she-cats involved in cross-clan extracurricular activities (or medicine queens behaving badly) - the kits are considered to be "punishment", from what I can gleam from Erin Hunter's writing. It;s been a long time, but I distinctly remember Yellowfang considering her kits to be a punishment.
That's pretty interesting, considering that the murder of kits is probably the most horrendous thing a warrior could do.
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Exile
Dec 11, 2012 13:19:56 GMT -6
Post by celestialsquared on Dec 11, 2012 13:19:56 GMT -6
I think banishment rarely happen because clans are like family and are supposedly going to stick together. They may also be a bit more lax with medicine cats if there is no one to replace them (or maybe also out of respect for them). Like Grey had said, I think murder is the main reason why a cat would be kicked out of the clan. The fandom seems to believe this too; there is a large amount of rogues who were banished because they killed a clanmate.
This also fits with the fact that Tigerstar was banned because he was murderous and Hollyleaf banished herself soon after she killed Ashfur.
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Exile
Dec 11, 2012 14:35:30 GMT -6
Post by Lady Ten on Dec 11, 2012 14:35:30 GMT -6
So I'm thinking the most unforgivable things that a cat can do is kill another cat, especially a kitten. (By that logic, Bluestar is very bad as well?) YES. Yeah, what's going on there? That's a strange contradiction, and also why in the world would you ever consider kittens a punishment? They're kittens! well yeah okay pregnancy BUT STILL kittenssss. I think banishment rarely happen because clans are like family and are supposedly going to stick together. True. wait what? Hollyleaf "banished herself"?
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Exile
Dec 11, 2012 15:22:04 GMT -6
Post by RussianTetris on Dec 11, 2012 15:22:04 GMT -6
wait what? Hollyleaf "banished herself"? Yup. Hollyleaf was distraught with the fact that she had murdered Ashfur and no one understood, so she lived in the tunnels with Falling Leaves ( I think that was him?), who became a jealous mess because she spent more time stalking her former clanmates than with him.
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Exile
Dec 11, 2012 15:28:41 GMT -6
Post by celestialsquared on Dec 11, 2012 15:28:41 GMT -6
I've never read that far into the Omen of the Stars series, but it's said on the wiki that she didn't return to ThunderClan after her accident because she thought they were better off without her. Drama Queen.
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vbfdoee
Young Warrior
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Exile
Dec 11, 2012 16:52:16 GMT -6
Post by vbfdoee on Dec 11, 2012 16:52:16 GMT -6
What should be done about a medicine cat who has committed a banishment-worthy offense? This is puzzling to me, as is what would happen if a medicine cat dies before taking an apprentice (ThunderClan at the end of Into the Wild were really, really lucky that Yellowfang was willing to take over). There's the example of Yellowfang, who was simply banished. However, she had already trained Runningnose (poor dude) enough for him to be able to take over as ShadowClan's medicine cat. In addition to this, the charge for which she was banished was egregious- I mean, murdering kits. And then there's Leafpool, whose offense, though certainly a crime against the warrior code several times over, was a grey area in terms of being banishment-worthy. She gave up the life of a medicine cat but, again, she had an apprentice with enough training to take over easily. I don't have an answer to Ten's question or anything. I just feel like writing a fanfiction where a medicine cat gets murdered and their new apprentice has to somehow finish their training and find out who was responsible.
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Exile
Dec 11, 2012 20:52:45 GMT -6
Post by Grey on Dec 11, 2012 20:52:45 GMT -6
This whole thread is reminding me of: www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eNFgN7hMWsThe justice system of Warriors seems to be incredibly undefined. It seems that whatever the leader says, goes - which makes sense, considering the leader's word is law. However, as was seen with Brokenstar and various other instances of corruption, that can lead to particularly unpleasant side-effects, including the banishment of innocent parties (such as Yellowfang). So I'm wondering how the "leader's word is law" rule came into effect, and why. I'm quite sure that there's a story in Code of the Clans (I haven't found my book yet, I'll read up on it when I do) but I also mean from a non-canonical point of view, as well as why Erin Hunter chose for it to be included in the code. In other words, was this rule added solely because Erin Hunter needed some way for cats to be banished or punished despite clan consensus against such actions, or does the "leader's word is law" rule actually seem like a likely occurrence in a clowder of cats? It's just that Yellowfang's banishment got me thinking - she was well-liked and respected by her clan, and I'm quite sure Bluestar spoke of "Yellowfang's wisdom" being somewhat respected by other clans as well. Of all cats to be banished, she (who also happened to be a medicine cat and strong warrior) seems to be a really unlikely choice. Naturally, infanticide would be cause enough - but I'm thinking that the evidence against Yellowfang must have been incredible for her to be ousted? Or was it only because "Brokenstar said it's true so it is"?
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Exile
Dec 11, 2012 21:02:39 GMT -6
Post by RussianTetris on Dec 11, 2012 21:02:39 GMT -6
It's just that Yellowfang's banishment got me thinking - she was well-liked and respected by her clan, and I'm quite sure Bluestar spoke of "Yellowfang's wisdom" being somewhat respected by other clans as well. Of all cats to be banished, she (who also happened to be a medicine cat and strong warrior) seems to be a really unlikely choice. Naturally, infanticide would be cause enough - but I'm thinking that the evidence against Yellowfang must have been incredible for her to be ousted? Or was it only because "Brokenstar said it's true so it is"? I think they agreed more out of fear than actually believing Yellowfang had committed such a crime. By this point in time, I think the Clan was more concerned about their own well being than her own. They didn't want to become the ones that got banished, or forced to live in the territory with the elders. It would be apparent by this point that Brokenstar was not fooling around, and would allow anyone to argue with or question him, and so everybody just went along with it. After all, Blackfoot did appear to be rather upset that Yellowfang was being exiled, but didn't speak up about it.
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vbfdoee
Young Warrior
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Exile
Dec 11, 2012 21:09:05 GMT -6
Post by vbfdoee on Dec 11, 2012 21:09:05 GMT -6
I think that in most Clans a cat like Yellowfang wouldn't be banished that easily. She had a couple factors against her:
1. You mentioned how absolutely heinous of a crime infanticide is. No need to repeat ourselves. Yellowfang's clanmates may have been too shocked/outraged to really think about it.
2. Brokenstar was basically cat Stalin (i think Tigerstar wins the Godwin's Law honors here), and I feel like most, if not all of the cats in ShadowClan were either indoctrinated into unquestioning obedience to him or too terrified to speak out against him.
(someone please stop me from making a thread comparing antagonists to real life historical figures)
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Exile
Dec 11, 2012 21:17:32 GMT -6
Post by RussianTetris on Dec 11, 2012 21:17:32 GMT -6
Honestly, if you did that it would make my day. ...Which is probably not helping you resist the urge at all, hehe. My bad.
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Exile
Dec 13, 2012 21:26:44 GMT -6
Post by Lady Ten on Dec 13, 2012 21:26:44 GMT -6
I don't have an answer to Ten's question or anything. I just feel like writing a fanfiction where a medicine cat gets murdered and their new apprentice has to somehow finish their training and find out who was responsible. Yes do. (someone please stop me from making a thread comparing antagonists to real life historical figures) No don't. Or at least compare them to ones that are a tad less popular to reference, like Mussolini or something. Hitler and Stalin get alluded to way too much in any instance of "serious bad guy who initiated much harm". It's just too easy.
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