angels and demons as a rp genre

[Lady Ten]

...likely to become part of a series.


hmm. Where to begin.

Oh. First, a warning. I'll put a content warning on this if I have to, but even then, don't expect a lot of tolerance for ignorant spouting off. Even though the phenomena has made a nuisance of itself for quite some time now, and even though I really want to talk about it, I'm very wary about even posting about this. For best results, please stay on topic and tread carefully.

First, a brief introduction and overview of onexone "culture," if you will. Most of y'all are already experienced with fora and group roleplaying, and roleplays conducted one on one are much the same except for venue and manner of proposal. I don't come across as many angels and demons fora as I do onexone ads that list angels and demons as a potential genre, so the latter will be my focus.

For those unfamiliar with them, the things you need to know about onexone ad pages are these: at minimum, they list a player's personal rules, genres of interest, and means of contact. Today I'll be looking at genres. Sometimes, people list genres in terms of era (ex. modern, medieval), sometimes, people list genres in terms of species (ex. wolf, werewolf -- note that straight-up animal rps are much rarer than fantasy humanoid rps) and sometimes... sometimes people just put a list of pairings. This is something to complain about all by itself (a designated romance isn't a genre, people; these "odd pairings" as they're called are so prevalent now as to no longer qualify as odd in this context, so much to rant about... another time). A list of pairings is a very common part, if not the only part, of a onexone ad's genre list.

I mention this because the placement of "angels and demons" on the genre list is, as far as I can tell, often tantamount to putting "angel x demon", as in shipping them together for a sexual and/or romantic relationship.

Before we get into how big of a no that is, let's consider the validity of roleplaying angels and demons at all in the first place.

For one thing, I just want to say it's kind of weird. But people roleplay as mythical creatures like vampires and fairies all over the place, right? Is that any different? I can't say. I live in a culture where the existence of such creatures is not intertwined with any prevalent religious ideologies and where these creatures are frequently used in fiction -- the ideas revolving around vampires, in particular, and other monsters like werewolves, have been severed from their demonic roots well enough in the popular American (can I generalize to Western?) psyche that they've been established, in many stories, as either the results of a contagious virus or a distinct species all their own. When used in roleplaying, they are not necessarily tied to a struggle between Good and Evil, God and Satan, Heaven and Hell, or what have you. They're just another kind of people with unusual problems. I really don't care if people roleplay creatures like that.

Seeing "angel and demons" on a genre list, however, is an instant -10 points to my impression of a roleplayer. While I have not attempted the genre enough to be personally familiar with how it is played, I'm going to make some educated guesses here.

When an English-speaking roleplayer puts down "angels and demons" as a genre of interest, my guess is they're talking about their perception of the widely-recognized Judeo-Christian use of the terms. And when they say "angels and demons", my guess is that they do not in fact mean Judeo-Christian angels and demons according to that religious tradition.

Any religion scholars are welcome to contradict this next bit: in the Torah and in the Bible, evil spirits and/or demons seem to be a name given to (among other things) otherwise at-the-time unexplainable phenomena now termed mental disorders and mental illness. The accounts we have of them (in Judeo-Christian canon) say they possess and torment people. The accounts do not say anything, as far as I've read, about them having a certain color palette, red eyes, bat wings, or excessive angst. Their primary existence takes place in the bodies of others (as opposed to walking around in a form of their own) and they are basically minions. And minions, here, does not mean slaves -- it means something more akin to robots. Or viruses. Viruses sent from Hell.

Now angels. Oh boy. You know that image you get in your head when you hear the word "angel"? Yeah, put that down for a minute. The angels that are recorded to have come down to visit people on Earth haven't got much written down about their appearance (besides looking like -- disguised as -- human men) but there's a lot more if we consider the holy beings inhabiting Heaven. They look like a variety of things. And when I say that, not only do I mean they come in different sorts, but also that they look like a variety of things -- a whole chimera-like monstrous mish-mash of things. Some keep it simple and are just known for having several pairs of wings that are eternally on fire, while others have four different heads, and then there are the ones that are described as wheels within wheels that are covered in hundreds of eyeballs. It's a mixed bag.

Regardless of appearance, it's also important to note that whenever an angel visits a human, the first words out of its mouth are usually "Do not be afraid." Just look at how people react to seeing them.

Luke 1:11-13
Matthew 28:2-5 *
Luke 2:8-10

* I like how in this one the angel ignores the guards who are freaking out and just addresses the women.

Now look what happens when one of them doesn't immediately clarify that this will be a nonthreatening message:

Luke 1:26-30

Apparently it's pretty easy to mistake an angel visitation for an Eldritch abomination. Think about that the next time you go to use the word "angelic".

Of course, this isn't at all like the popular image of what angels and demons are thought to be like. I'm not even sure where we got the whole deal with bull horns and bat wings from, but the red/black color scheme comes from the Western cultural associations with passion and death (and by Western, I mean distinctly not traditional Hebrew). As for angels being beautiful blonde women and chubby babies, blame the Romans for that. Remember how the Roman Empire was occupying Israel right when all this Jesus business was going down? Remember how they thought Christians were the worst thing ever, until their emperor converted to one? Remember how the popular conception of the Christian God basically merged with the image of bearded, lightning-throwing Zeus? Icky, bestial rapist Zeus? Yeah I'm not fond of these guys or their cultural influence MOVING ON.

As roleplayers, y'all know that a key part of characterization is that your character must be able to interact with others and respond to the situation in a variety of ways to move the story along and keep things interesting. A really basic, basic requirement of all this is something known as "free will". Do angels and demons have free will? I don't know. The "fall from grace" theory says they do. But even then, a realistic/authentic depiction of their lives(?) would feature lots of bureaucratic management, the issuing of memos, repetitive torment, and the like, which doesn't sound like a good basis for a roleplay (writing plots suitable for effective roleplaying -- whole 'nother topic).

So, of course, what people do is stick with the popularized Western stereotypes that are probably all they know.

SUMMARY WITH THE IMPORTANT PART.

There are lots of stupid and distasteful things that people roleplay, and I single this one out because it's inherently based upon a misunderstanding/mishandling of religious concepts. What I figure is that majority of people who've put "angels and demons" on their genres list aren't particularly interested in faithfulness to the Judeo-Christian religion, and I wouldn't even have to bring that up if it weren't for the fact that they're taking this idea from the tradition without caring about the origin or the history or the meaning or what the terms are actually about. To clarify, if people want to play characters with a gothic aesthetic or a snowy avian aesthetic, that's muy bien, go on ahead, but it becomes a different issue once people apply the terms "angels" and "demons" to beings that qualify as neither (and are basically trussed-up human-minded humans with superpowers).

But isn't it easier if people just use the terms with a well-known cultural image that just happen to be taken from someone else's religion? Easier, yeah. It sure is easy to do that.

I'm skeptical of the thinking that says easier is better.

I understand why people do it -- roleplaying is for fun, and they think anything's fine if it's just for fun. It's "just" for fun. And, you know, whenever someone takes a sacred religious concept and uses it for their own petty entertainment... it's like that time I was in a tourist shop, in Utah, and saw pre-packaged faux-Native "medicine bags". Even thinking about it, I cringe.

[mistytail]

I actually find angels to be really interesting, and I find the conflict of how to write a creature without free will - as that's generally what's taught in "angelology," that angels do not have free will and refer to humans as "trained monkeys" because God created us second but loves us more and gave us free will and not them - really interesting. I actually have a novel plotline centered around the whole idea, as I find Judeo-Christian mythology (I guess that's what you'd call their studies of angels and demons?) really, really interesting.

For a roleplay, though? Yeah, that's not going to work too well unless you have extremely skilled writers.

[Lady Ten]

I'm not sure where you're getting the "trained monkeys" thing. Not an unexpected or unlikely sentiment, but I haven't heard anything to that effect before.

Of course they're interesting. They're like dinosaur battleships!!1 But I don't think any degree of writing skill makes it worth trying to write about incomprehensible minds. It's one thing to write about creatures of a different culture, or with a different perspective, or animals with limited/expanded/different perception, but once things get a certain degree of alien, there's no longer anything to relate to. That's why anthropomorphism is so handy. But then you have the problem of slipping into writing them like humans with masks.

Fiction Factor's not a great resource, but I like this article they have on the subject: fantasy.fictionfactor.com/articles/fairies.html

If they're not supposed to think like humans, they shouldn't be written like humans. But we like things written like humans. Even with humans of a different cultural mindset, relatable human problems that we can understand are what make stories function. We can write narratives about cats or computers or leaves, but only by projecting and/or emphasizing characteristics that resemble our own. Even in stories about people on the other side of the world long ago in a time and place we never knew, we can find things mentally and emotionally in common and take something away from the narrative that is applicable to our own lives.

And when you can't, well, that kind of takes away the purpose of reading a story. But this is kind of getting into my own philosophy on the point of fiction.

Also, went perusing the roleplay ads again and what do I see? someone suggested "angelxhuman" no no no no bad wrong you do not win any of the prizes.

[Grey]

I'm afraid to say that I take the opposite viewpoint here, Ten. While I can understand certain frustrations, I do not think that there is anything wrong in choosing to role play "angels and demons", in whatever way that may be. It's not exactly my idea of fun (although I'm just guessing, I've never actually tried it as far as I can remember), but I can't see why it's such an irritation to you.

often tantamount to putting "angel x demon", as in shipping them together for a sexual and/or romantic relationship.

Before we get into how big of a no that is, let's consider the validity of roleplaying angels and demons at all in the first place.

For me, the biggest "no" here is that it's often a sexual/romantic relationship, because that sounds boring and gross. That is the end on my qualms on the subject of people role playing this "genre" - and the best part is, I don't actually have to see it. I don't role play it, and so what people do behind closed doors has no effect on my happiness and well-being. Essentially, they can continue to do what they like, and I don't mind unless it's put in my face. Being a one-on-one, and thus private, role play ensures that will not happen. I'm not certain why this is not also your point of view.

To be honest, it makes me thoroughly uncomfortable to consider that you are getting annoyed with people (who are probably still reasonably young - not that age really matters) because their concept of an angel and a demon does not match yours, and that you want them to stop because you don't like it.

There's an awful lot I find alarming and wrong about that. I believe that no person (however educated they may be) should be going around telling people how they ought to be doing things. Discussing is fine by me. Advice is fine by me. Even purposeful assistance is fine by me. But a heavy-handed need to control is not, and that's what I'm getting from this article.

For one thing, you've just said

let's consider the validity of roleplaying angels and demons at all in the first place.

You used the word "validity" as if there is some quantifiable means by which to decide whether your role play (and by extension, your writing) is "right" or "wrong". There isn't. As it stands, I'm not completely certain "validity" is an appropriate word in your usage here - after all, it basically means "cogent", which in turn means "persuasive argument". Perhaps I am reading the wrong definitions and perhaps I am tired, but these things are not appearing coherent to me.

I just want to say it's kind of weird. But people roleplay as mythical creatures like vampires and fairies all over the place, right? Is that any different? I can't say.

This is what stumps me. Is the role playing of fairies different to that of angels and demons? And the answer to that is no. It is not. Or, at least, to find the middle-ground, not always.

Yes, some people choose to write angels and demons in a fetishised/watered-down/unrealistic/religiously inaccurate/frankly silly/any or all of the above manner, but the fact they do so does not make them wrong. As you said, this happens to every other sort of "person" - fairies have been through the pop culture meat-grinder too, and everything else besides. It is inevitable.

When used in roleplaying, they are not necessarily tied to a struggle between Good and Evil, God and Satan, Heaven and Hell, or what have you. They're just another kind of people with unusual problems. I really don't care if people roleplay creatures like that.

So if you don't mind that people role play those sorts of characters, all I can figure is that your reasoning against the use of "angels" and "demons" is the fact that a higher power is suspected of being invoked in the works. Were it not for the expected inclusion of God-like or Satan-ish beings, would you still be so opposed to the usage of "angels" and "demons" in this way?

This is an actual question, by the way. Not a rhetorical one. I am honestly interested.

When an English-speaking roleplayer puts down "angels and demons" as a genre of interest, my guess is they're talking about their perception of the widely-recognized Judeo-Christian use of the terms. And when they say "angels and demons", my guess is that they do not in fact mean Judeo-Christian angels and demons according to that religious tradition.

My argument to this is: so what? It's blunt, I know, but that's really the best summary I can offer.

So what these people are using altered versions/versions that have been made popular by contemporary media? The significance of this is lost on me. Things change. Words and their meanings also change.

These days, the word "angel" accurately describes both the traditional vision of an angel and the modern vision of an angel, the latter of which is usually decked in white, with wings. Who are you to say which is more "correct"?

As roleplayers, y'all know that a key part of characterization is that your character must be able to interact with others and respond to the situation in a variety of ways to move the story along and keep things interesting. A really basic, basic requirement of all this is something known as "free will". Do angels and demons have free will? I don't know. The "fall from grace" theory says they do. But even then, a realistic/authentic depiction of their lives(?) would feature lots of bureaucratic management, the issuing of memos, repetitive torment, and the like, which doesn't sound like a good basis for a roleplay (writing plots suitable for effective roleplaying -- whole 'nother topic).

I have to disagree with you. I think there's a lot that can be done with the concept of angels and demons, and I think discovering those possibilities would be incredibly fun to do. I don't claim any skill when it comes to effective role playing or anything of the sort, but I do have a highly honed sense of fun, and I think that may actually be just as valuable, if not more.

There are lots of stupid and distasteful things that people roleplay, and I single this one out because it's inherently based upon a misunderstanding/mishandling of religious concepts.

No. This is wrong. These people may not know the ancient details about angels and demons, and neither might they know the originals, etcetera, etcetera, but at no point does that make what they're doing "mishandling" or "misunderstanding". They know what they're doing, and that's role playing angels and demons the way they want to, which happens to closely resemble the contemporary concept of angels as androgynous people in white, and demons as sex gods (probably in dark leather, I don't really know).

What I figure is that majority of people who've put "angels and demons" on their genres list aren't particularly interested in faithfulness to the Judeo-Christian religion, and I wouldn't even have to bring that up if it weren't for the fact that they're taking this idea from the tradition without caring about the origin or the history or the meaning or what the terms are actually about.

I like the history of things, the reasons, and I also like the way things evolve and change through use. That's why the etymology of words is of such an interest to me.

However, not everyone shares that interest. Some people look less to the past and live more in the present, and some just plain do not care. So much the worse for them, because the world is rich and diverse and fascinating, but it's not something I consider a problem.

But isn't it easier if people just use the terms with a well-known cultural image that just happen to be taken from someone else's religion?

Oh, I see. It's the appropriation of a word that's the root of the issue.

As an interesting fact, the Australian term "verandah" (meaning the thing that is built around your house to keep the sun out) was actually a Hindi word "baharanda" and had spelling changed over time, like many other English words. Some words are stolen straight from other languages, meanings often altered in the process. English is highly eclectic like that.

My point is, why should the appropriation of the word "angel" or "demon" be any different to the unscrupulous snitching of words from another language? It's just a word, and in saying that, I mean it is sacred and mundane, just like every other word.

And, you know, whenever someone takes a sacred religious concept and uses it for their own petty entertainment... it's like that time I was in a tourist shop, in Utah, and saw pre-packaged faux-Native "medicine bags". Even thinking about it, I cringe.

I am really not sure that analogy is suitable, considering one of these things is a discussion of writing style and interpretation and one is an consumerism-driven appropriation of an actual human culture.

And, you know, whenever someone takes a sacred religious concept and uses it for their own petty entertainment...

Is anything really sacred in writing, though? I can't say. The choice not to write (role playing, literature, whatever) about angels and demons would mean that some great stories would not exist*, and I'm certainly not all right with that.

And I wouldn't really use the word "petty" when speaking of the entertainment of writing. It might be lame or unsophisticated or just plain awful to read, but skills don't just turn up in a dream and every piece of writing is an inch towards something better, in my opinion. I like most things that encourage people to write. As well as this, the happiness that can be derived from writing a misspelled awful uneventful gratuitous cliched story with a friend is not to be considered trivial, I think. It is one of the greatest joys a young life can have.

*Having recently read Good Omens by Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman, I can comfortably say that it is absolutely excellent and I recommend it if anyone ever has the time to read it. I cannot remember the last time I enjoyed a book so much.

[cloudbat]

Essentially, they can continue to do what they like, and I don't mind unless it's put in my face.

In which Grey continues to voice my exact thoughts.

Frankly, I wish people would research the terms they use too, but I'm not exactly...annoyed about it. I think popular-image angels and demons and traditional angels and demons can both be used for decent roleplay. (Yes yes "decent" is subjective and the topic of a whole nother argument but for now let's assume it means "interesting and engaging.") _{which are also subjective but screw it}

I think everyone knows my feelings on the shipping aspect by now. If you don't, it can be summed up as follows: I don't give an expletive, do what you want.

So much the worse for them, because the world is rich and diverse and fascinating, but it's not something I consider a problem.

You sound like me, except less mocking and disdainful.

And, you know, whenever someone takes a sacred religious concept and uses it for their own petty entertainment... it's like that time I was in a tourist shop, in Utah, and saw pre-packaged faux-Native "medicine bags". Even thinking about it, I cringe.

While that is definitely cringe-worthy, as Grey said I don't think it's on the same level at all.

As for what you said about taking a religious concept and using it for entertainment...well, I'm in between you and Grey on the matter. I consider very few things sacred myself (I'm barely religious at all) but I do think people should at least do basic research on the concepts they use. Does this mean they should follow everything they find to the letter? No. But they should have some idea of what they're talking about.

However, that's just a personal preference of mine and I acknowledge that the average rper doesn't subscribe to it.

Also, while I admit to being very critical and callous of what I consider to be poor quality work, I (reluctantly) admit that Grey is right and every piece of writing is indeed work toward something better. I was a barely mediocre writer less than a year ago; I'd like to think I'm at least mildly competent in some areas now. And behind the mild competence is a whole lot of crap that people had to put up with and gave me critique on.

Then again I'm getting a bit off the main point now so I'll stop.

Also that book sounds fantastic, Grey. I've heard of it and since it's by two of my favorite authors (especially Pratchett, that man is amazing in so many ways) I would love to read it some day.