StarClan and Dreams

[mistytail]

(not sure if this is supposed to go here considering I'm discussing a Clan more than a character but I figured since it was a specific dissection of that Clan it might be appropriate here)

We all know StarClan loves to visit their special chosen cats in dreams. My thought is, why? If they can cover the moon with clouds to show their displeasure, or create an intensely painful childbirth to punish you for breaking the warrior code (What even was this, Erin Hunter? Did you think all births were peachy-keen and lovely? They're all as painful as shoving a watermelon through your nostril into your brain! I'm fairly certain at least one of you has her own children - what the heck was the thought process of this??), why do they appear in dreams, rather than as spiritual visions in the waking world so the Clans can know and fear them? The Judeo-Christian God almost never appears in dreams in the Bible. His angels do, but God Himself appears physically, be it a voice, a burning bush, a dove landing on His kid's shoulder - when God needs to show Himself, He does, so His followers will know and fear Him. Why didn't Erin Hunter use these sorts of elements to not only confirm to the reader that StarClan is in fact real, but to show the Clans that they are real.

However, doubting StarClan's existence when one has been raised in Clan life is also canonically proven to be true. Cloudtail of ThunderClan has openly admitted to not believing that StarClan exists, despite being a part of Clan life for so long that he insists that Brindleface is his birth mother when Fireheart first tells him that he is not Clanborn in Forest of Secrets. Mothwing of RiverClan, who is the Clan's medicine cat and therefore in the position that usually lends itself to intense, unwavering spirituality, also does not believe in StarClan. While the common denominator for Mothwing and Cloudtail's doubt is that they are not of Clan blood, they were both raised as Clan cats (though Mothwing entered RiverClan life much later than Cloudtail entered ThunderClan life). Their doubt is not explored, except mildly in the case of Mothwing to prove that she is somehow a "useless" medicine cat despite being able to heal her Clanmates just fine, and apparently having no sway over the spirituality of her apprentice, Willowpaw (whose god-awful warrior name will not be used by me ever).

Furthermore, what connects StarClan to dreams? Children in the 8-12 group often learn at some point in their health or biology classes that dreams are the production of the subconscious mind when one is asleep, and take from the recesses of one's memory and attempt to organize it in a way that makes sense to the brain. What connects the spiritual world to the subconscious mind? We know canonically from The Sight when Jaypaw walks through the dreams of his fellow medicine cats that Mothwing's dreams are closed off to StarClan, which indicates that she does not think of them. However, Mothwing did initially hope that she would be accepted by StarClan in Midnight, which indicates that she has given StarClan thought and the idea is thus buried in her subconscious. If that is the case, then Mothwing could have dreams of StarClan, which, if the Erins ever used any of the potential laid out before them (though that happens about as much as I have pigment in my body, which is none), could create interesting and real tension and drama by allowing her to go through a crisis of faith.

My final point would have to be: How exactly do the Clans know for certain that StarClan is real? If they do, then how are those raised within their ranks still able to deny that they exist and don't believe in them?

(This is written without any knowledge of the plot of The Last Hope other than apparently there's a battle between StarClan and the Place of No Stars that takes place in the living world for some reason. Honestly it sounds ridiculous and stupid so I have no intention of reading it but if anyone has any insight on it, feel free to share. I'm also writing this as I'm in the middle of writing a research paper but I wouldn't be able to concentrate if I didn't get the idea out of my system now so I may need to go back and edit this heavily so it makes more sense.)

[celestialsquared]

I haven't read The Last Hope either because its plot sounded stupid. And then I found out you can "die" again. (And then it's hinted you go to another afterlife???)

Back on topic, You're right. There are so many things that can be elaborated on when it comes to non-believers. Since StarClan usually only appear to those they favor, it's fairly easy to believe that they don't exist. I remember when Fireheart defeated Spottedleaf's murderer with her help and he was able to smell her scent on the wind. Something like this never happens again to anyone else, so what makes him so special? Why couldn't everyone see this, so StarClan can prove their presence as real? If Firestar told this story to anyone else, they might think he was hallucinating.

And the dreams! Almost every cat in the series who has had a StarClan dream has been quoted to think something along these lines: "Was that a real StarClan dream? Maybe it was something I ate last night. Afterall, StarClan only sends dreams to leaders and medicine cats, right?"
It seems even the believers don't have much faith and who can blame them?

There's also all the times when a leader dies. How could a non-believer see his leader die and then come to life right before his eyes and still have a solid disbelief of StarClan? What is their rational? What do they believe is truly going on here?

I was also fairly disappointed when in a chat with a fan one of the Erins (I forgot which) said that even though Mothwing doesn't believe in StarClan, she'll still be welcome there. So there's no punishment of not believing? I understand this is a children's book, but this is belittling considering what is taught to young Christians (or any faith, really). I suppose not believing in them grants you immunity from their judgement and there's nothing StarClan can do about it :I

[mistytail]

Well I always thought it would be a load of BS if a good cat wouldn't be welcome in StarClan just for not believing. Mothwing in particular is a dedicated medicine cat determined to save her Clan and if I remember correctly she's called a good mentor to Willowpaw despite her disbelief.

I think in terms of the afterlife aspect of StarClan, a good question to ask would be: Where do cats who don't believe in StarClan go? The Tribe has the Tribe of Endless Hunting, but that seems to be the only other sky we know of. Will Firestar and Cloudtail be able to see Princess and Smudge when they die??

[celestialsquared]

It's a question the Erins don't want to answer for reasons beyond me. They have answers for everything else, so why not be descriptive of what happens to non-believing cats instead of a bs answer that they'll be accepted regardless?
Non-believing cats, clan cats or otherwise, should go somewhere else.

[Lady Ten]

Nov 19, 2012 8:23:03 GMT -6 @mistytail said:

If they can cover the moon with clouds to show their displeasure, or create an intensely painful childbirth to punish you for breaking the warrior code (What even was this, Erin Hunter? Did you think all births were peachy-keen and lovely? They're all as painful as shoving a watermelon through your nostril into your brain! I'm fairly certain at least one of you has her own children - what the heck was the thought process of this??),

Wait, was that an actual thing that happened? Seriously?

Why didn't Erin Hunter use these sorts of elements to not only confirm to the reader that StarClan is in fact real, but to show the Clans that they are real.

As has been mentioned on another thread somewhere, it's also confusing why they wouldn't be able to appear during waking moments on the physical plane... when cats from the Dark Forest are themselves capable of doing exactly that.

Their doubt is not explored, except mildly in the case of Mothwing to prove that she is somehow a "useless" medicine cat despite being able to heal her Clanmates just fine, and apparently having no sway over the spirituality of her apprentice, Willowpaw (whose god-awful warrior name will not be used by me ever).

If Mothwing is able to heal, then how is she useless? That is, how is it revealed that she is regarded that way? Do you have some quotes on this?

Children in the 8-12 group often learn at some point in their health or biology classes that dreams are the production of the subconscious mind when one is asleep, and take from the recesses of one's memory and attempt to organize it in a way that makes sense to the brain.

I actually don't remember learning that at that age in those classes. That is, I do remember it being told to me, but not in either of those settings. It was just kind of something I picked up on, that this is how our culture regarded them. Anyway, minor detail, carry on.

What connects the spiritual world to the subconscious mind?

Well, if you think of the notion of "the subconscious mind" as a social construct (which it well might be, in that it has power as an idea but has not, thus far, been located in a precise physical structure), you can see how the Clans may have developed different cultural notions about the origins and functions of dreams. Even human cultures are not of one mind on this, after all. There are plenty of cultures that believe dreams are links to the spirit world or that seizures are the result of the spirit leaving the body, that sort of thing. They're not things that our culture agrees upon, but the existence of humans thinking that way is evidence enough that cats might also develop similar beliefs, in this case. Seeing as dreams are nonmaterial, it's not too much of a leap for the Clans to make that association.

which, if the Erins ever used any of the potential laid out before them (though that happens about as much as I have pigment in my body, which is none), could create interesting and real tension and drama by allowing her to go through a crisis of faith.

oh my toes, Misty, I was not expecting that one at all. I just burst out laughing.

Anyway, of course they wouldn't write something like that, because that would actually be challenging and dark. As much as Vicky claims to be interested in "shades of grey" in her characters, I don't think she's yet grasped how to write a conflict that isn't clear-cut.

Nov 19, 2012 13:29:11 GMT -6 celestialsquared said:

I was also fairly disappointed when in a chat with a fan one of the Erins (I forgot which) said that even though Mothwing doesn't believe in StarClan, she'll still be welcome there. So there's no punishment of not believing?

Can you find that quote for us?

Also, um. Just. I don't understand. Possibly, they mean to indicate that StarClan isn't "mean," and they're afraid it will make little kids sad if Mothwing doesn't go to StarClan, since that's where everyone's supposed to want to go (supposed to. not convinced it's all that great a reward).

However, not only does this make me question the use of believing in them at all (since they can't really affect outcomes or have power over the world*) but, uh, that would be terrifying.

Imagine, regardless of whatever your religious/spiritual perspective on how things work, you die and find out it's something completely different. I don't know about y'all, but that would really wig me out something awful. And then, in Mothwing's case, not only does it turn out she was wrong her whole life, but also now she's going to spend eternity feeling the guilt as she spends time in the company of all these spirits she believed were nonexistent (at least, until somebody forgets about her, kind of the same way she refused to believe in the spirits around her). Geez, Erins, don't you think that could really tear someone up inside?


* This raises another question -- why do cats always pray to StarClan when it's a known fact that they aren't gods and don't control what happens to cats in life?

[celestialsquared]

All great points, Ten. I was also able to find some quotes from the chat I mentioned earlier:

Question: Will Mothwing and Cloudtail go to StarClan?
Answer: CherithBaldry: I think they will, and be very, very surprised. But Vicky might not agree!


Question: What happens to cats who don't believe in StarClan? PLease don't make my precious Cloudtail go into nothing when he dies.
Answer: VickyHolmes: Cloudtail is so lovely, I expect StarClan will do everything they can to drag his spirit into their beautiful forest!
CherithBaldry: I would think they are judged on how they have lived, so Cloudtail would join StarClan. I hope Vicky agrees.

"Very, very surprised"? Try mind blown. They have to spent the rest of existence feeling like fools.