StarClan's criteria

[drheiter]

Hi, this is my first thread outside of my introduction, so I apologize if it's categorized incorrectly or anything.

(Just a warning, there are a few spoilers ahead)

Ever since the Dark Forest was introduced, I'd wondered who decides where the deceased cats end up and why. As the series progressed, we were able to see a little more into the cats of StarClan, and it's given me an idea as to why.

The third series is where I stopped thinking of StarClan like a god and more a group of dead warriors and nothing more. Yes, they have power over the living cats, but they're not one collective being. They're separate cats with their own thoughts and ideas, and sometimes these thoughts and ideas among the deceased bring conflict just as they do among the living.

I'm led to believe that StarClan have a sort of vote to determine whether the deceased join their ranks or not. From my point of view, the StarClan cats seem to dislike the overly ambitious. Tigerstar, Brokenstar, and Hawkfrost are prime examples of this.

A voting system such as this would be a bit of an explanation as to why there seem to be heavy bias towards a select few. Ashfur and Mapleshade could be considered examples here; both attempted to ruin the lives of relatives to whom they had unrequited love.

The difference between the two appears to be that Mapleshade was indeed clever but also harsh and generally dislike-able, while Ashfur was charismatic and easier to feel empathy towards. Personal beliefs on StarClan's part may have led Ashfur to be accepted into StarClan while Mapleshade was put in the Dark Forest.

This is just my idea as to why StarClan don't accept everyone and I'm sure others have their own ideas, and I'd be very happy to hear them c:

[Rolo]

I love this discussion. Starclan and the Dark forest are two of my favourite points to discuss in the Warriors books.

First off, I like your idea for how they may decide who goes where. It does seem very plausible, but very biased as a means of doing so (but, as you touched upon, there don't seem to be any clear guidelines about who goes and who doesn't, so this works in your arguments favour). The only potential pitfall I've found with that argument is that there was once an internet short, the name of which escapes me, around the time of the last US election which had the clans discover 'voting'. This implies that the clans, perhaps Starclan, didn't know about the concept of voting previously. But then, Starclan may still have known... and it's questionable about whether this additional material can be called a part of canon.

I think it's likely that the Erins want people to make this kind of assumption about Starclan. I know that in later books, they did a lot to show that the Starclan cats were individuals and that Starclan was not a paradise (it has fleas still. Yes, seriously.) So, I think you're likely right about them making the reader assume that it's chosen by individual cats as a group, somehow.

For me, though, I see this ambiguity about how which afterlife a clan cat goes to as a huge writing and concept flaw. I think the biggest problem is that the Erins did not develop the concept of Starclan enough in the first series (which benefitted from having Starclan shrouded by mystery), so it was harder to see these underdeveloped aspects. This made it harder for them in the later books when Starclan was given a bigger role. This question of who 'deserved' to go to Starclan was only bought up, as you said, when the Dark Forest became a part of the books, and it actually made Starclan a weaker concept overall. Partly because it's so unclear what the benefits of going to Starclan are (fleas, your soul eventually fades, there isn't unity), opposed to going to the Dark Forest (You can 'escape' the Dark Forest and talk to the clans). These ambiguities, I think, are why the Erins never explicitly explained the 'acception' processes, because they knew they had a weak concept and that explaining it better would show that up.

Also, contextually, I think keeping it ambiguous was advantageous to the Erins. As it's a children's book, so they're less concerned about representing 'moral' issues in an adult way and more interested in sending the characters people like to nice places, and those they hate to bad places. Keeping it ambiguous means they can put whoever they want anywhere in line with their plot ideas, and they have a lesser chance of upsetting children.

[Lady Ten]

Aug 27, 2012 23:37:37 GMT -6 drheiter said:

I'm led to believe that StarClan have a sort of vote to determine whether the deceased join their ranks or not. From my point of view, the StarClan cats seem to dislike the overly ambitious. Tigerstar, Brokenstar, and Hawkfrost are prime examples of this.

There's certainly a certain category of characters that they disfavor, and those characters are indeed considered among the "ambitious," but ambition must not be the disqualifying characteristic (or at least, not the only one) considering the lengths Bluefur was willing to go to have her cake and eat it too. I anticipate that some might defend her by saying that she made (some) of those choices on the basis of a prophecy, but if Tigerstar thought that power was his destiny, that he featured in a prophecy, and that he had a medicine cat to back him up on this, would anyone consider him any less of a villain? Bluestar's not as "bad" as Tigerstar (whatever that means), granted, but let's not deny that she wanted power and made sacrifices to get it. Some nonsense prophecy can't brush that fact aside.

A voting system such as this would be a bit of an explanation as to why there seem to be heavy bias towards a select few. Ashfur and Mapleshade could be considered examples here; both attempted to ruin the lives of relatives to whom they had unrequited love.

The difference between the two appears to be that Mapleshade was indeed clever but also harsh and generally dislike-able, while Ashfur was charismatic and easier to feel empathy towards. Personal beliefs on StarClan's part may have led Ashfur to be accepted into StarClan while Mapleshade was put in the Dark Forest.

Sounds reasonable (a reasonable conclusion on your part, that is, not reasonable behavior on StarClan's part). Since I'm not familiar with either of their story arcs, can you provide us with some quotes to illustrate the differences between the two?

[drheiter]

The only potential pitfall I've found with that argument is that there was once an internet short, the name of which escapes me, around the time of the last US election which had the clans discover 'voting'. This implies that the clans, perhaps Starclan, didn't know about the concept of voting previously.

I think I've heard about that, something about who should lead the entire forest for a very short amount of time? Something similar to that.

I believe StarClan did know about 'voting', because in Long Shadows Jaypaw(feather) travels back in time, where The Ancients are "casting stones" (the stone represents their choice, on one side or the other of a line drawn from a stick). I wouldn't be surprised if they did a larger-scale version of this in StarClan.

For me, though, I see this ambiguity about how which afterlife a clan cat goes to as a huge writing and concept flaw. I think the biggest problem is that the Erins did not develop the concept of Starclan enough in the first series (which benefitted from having Starclan shrouded by mystery), so it was harder to see these underdeveloped aspects.

Yes, I definitely agree with you here. This seems to have happened more than once with the Erins; they dig themselves into holes they can't get out of by simply failing to develop their ideas.

As it's a children's book, so they're less concerned about representing 'moral' issues in an adult way and more interested in sending the characters people like to nice places, and those they hate to bad places. Keeping it ambiguous means they can put whoever they want anywhere in line with their plot ideas, and they have a lesser chance of upsetting children.

Again, I agree with you here. It just really bugs me how there is no clear set of rules for acceptance or denial. However, I realize that a lot of the kids reading this book don't really care one way or another.

[drheiter]

There's certainly a certain category of characters that they disfavor, and those characters are indeed considered among the "ambitious," but ambition must not be the disqualifying characteristic (or at least, not the only one) considering the lengths Bluefur was willing to go to have her cake and eat it too.

A big part of the whole "good ambition vs bad ambition" issue is black-and-white thinking and underdeveloped characters, in my opinion. I think one of the bigger differences is that the sacrifices Bluestar made hurt her while the sacrifices Tigerstar made hurt others.

Bluestar sacrificed her mate and kits for the position of deputy/leadership, which both hurt her for obvious reasons. Tigerstar's sacrifices, on the other hand, included the (attempted) murder of his leader and the killing of any half-Clan cat. These decisions did not affect him personally, rather he saw them as obstacles in the way of obtaining power; 'The end justifies the means'.

Another large difference between the two was that Tigerstar only seemed to want power for the fun of it while Bluestar was determined to ensure that Thistleclaw, a battle-hungry and violent warrior, did not gain leadership. In the end, what we have here are a warrior willing to give up everything she loves to ensure that her Clan is well-protected and safe versus a warrior who doesn't mind killing those he deems unworthy of life so that he may have power.

So while in this way of thinking there are not set rules as to who gets in and who does not, this thought process is one a voter is likely to go through, in my opinion.

Since I'm not familiar with either of their story arcs, can you provide us with some quotes to illustrate the differences between the two?

Sure c:
As for Ashfur, on the Warriors Wiki is a quote directly from Yellowfang; "His only fault was to love too much"- Yellowfang to Jayfeather about Ashfur in Sign Of The Moon, page 94

When it is found out that Ashfur was killed, many warriors voice their admiration for him;
"'Ashfur must be avenged!' 'He was a fine warrior!' 'The whole Clan respected him! No ThunderClan cat would have killed him!'"- Unnamed ThunderClan warriors in Sunrise, page 15

(I'd like to have given more examples for Ashfur, but the books are not all available to me at the moment; many were library books from my school)

For Mapleshade, I believe she must have died before any of the canon books, so I'm afraid I can not give any examples of her alive. However, I can certainly show you how she would be dislike-able to others even after she is dead.

"Mapleshade stared back as vicious as a fox. Why was she suddenly so mean? StarClan cats weren't supposed to be mean!" -Crookedjaw's thoughts about Mapleshade (before he discovered she was not a StarClan warrior but a Dark Forest warrior), Crookedstar's Promise, page 234

"'My heart isn't soured by bitterness or guided by revenge.'"- Goosefeather to Mapleshade, referencing her heart, Crookedstar's Promise, page 236.

"She snapped open her eyes and saw Mapleshade. The orange-and-white warrior was gazing at her with a mocking gleam in her eyes. 'Leave me alone!' Ivypaw hissed. 'Are you having a bad dream, dear?' Mapleshade sneered." -A scene in which Ivypaw awakens in the Dark Forest (Ivypaw avoids Mapleshade when she can and had never done anything to provoke this anger from Mapleshade) in Night Whispers, page 263.

Mapleshade, from what I've gathered in the books, did noting in her (real, not Dark Forest) life that would have made her "evil". She had a mate outside of her Clan and was exiled, a broken rule in the Warrior Code, but later in the series this happens almost constantly with no repercussions. She only attempted to ruin lives after she had been placed in the Dark Forest.
When Ashfur was a victim of a broken heart, he attempted to burn his unrequited love's kits alive.

However, due to a large number of cats actually liking Ashfur as a person (or, in this case, as a cat), he was accepted while the generally unlikable Mapleshade was rejected.

[victorystars]

This is a very interesting discussion, and I'd like to add my two cents, if it were.

I always found the idea of Starclan very interesting, even when reading the books at a younger age. However, as the series progressed, and we saw more into the insight and ideas that Starclan showed, I started to lose interest, and eventually came to dread whenever they'd poke their noses into the business of the living. Probably one of the reasons why I stopped reading during PoT.

I always wondered what was the difference between good and evil in the warrior's world, and I often thought that breaking the code enough times, or breaking it in a serious way would give a cat a ticket to the dark forest, plain and simple.
Killing cats? One way ticket to the Dark Forest.
Lesser offenses? Depended on how many of them you did.

However, Bluestar's prophecy, and a certain leader threw a spanner into my theory.
Pinestar.

Now, for those that do not know, Pinestar abandoned his clan, his mate, and this three kits, in order to become a kittypet, breaking rule 15 of the warrior code.
However, when he died, he still went to Starclan.

This baffled me to no end about the criteria Starclan uses to judge cats.
While I can not offer antything insightful to this discussion, I would like to know everyone's opinion on what constitutes 'bad' enough for the Dark forest?
So far, from what I understand: Killing cats = bad, while anything else = good?

[drheiter]

This baffled me to no end about the criteria Starclan uses to judge cats.
While I can not offer antything insightful to this discussion, I would like to know everyone's opinion on what constitutes 'bad' enough for the Dark forest?
So far, from what I understand: Killing cats = bad, while anything else = good?

This is where I get confused, also. I'm thinking it's some kind of combination between breaking the Warrior Code for personal gain and the individual cats of StarClan's bias towards the cat in question.

Firestar is an example of this. He killed Scourge and broke the code otherwise (feeding Yellowfang when she was a rogue), but it is well-known that Firestar is loved by absolutely everybody and 'has no faults' (which is a different discussion entirely), thus he got into StarClan.

By comparison, Mapleshade had a mate from a different Clan, a smaller offense that countless others have gotten away with without so much as a punishment, and was put in the Dark Forest seemingly only for that. I mentioned before that she doesn't seem likely to be that popular among anybody, and could have been put in the Dark Forest simply for a large number of StarClan not wanting her there.

So, while at least some breach of the Warrior Code is more than likely necessary to get into the Dark Forest, in my opinion it is just as likely that StarClan pick and choose who they don't want with them for personal reasons.

[Lady Ten]

Aug 28, 2012 16:55:53 GMT -6 drheiter said:

I believe StarClan did know about 'voting', because in Long Shadows Jaypaw(feather) travels back in time,

ahahahahahahahahahaha sorry I'm not laughing at you, it's just that sometimes I forget just how crazy the series has gotten.

A big part of the whole "good ambition vs bad ambition" issue is black-and-white thinking and underdeveloped characters, in my opinion. I think one of the bigger differences is that the sacrifices Bluestar made hurt her while the sacrifices Tigerstar made hurt others.

Technicality: Bluestar made decisions that hurt others as well. She didn't have to drag Mosskit out into the snow and let her die. That was a choice, a sacrifice that she made that cost another cat her life, the only excuse being "the ends justify the means". Whether you believe those ends actually do justify those means is a different topic, but it's equally applicable here.

Another large difference between the two was that Tigerstar only seemed to want power for the fun of it

I don't remember it being for fun, exactly. Then again, I don't remember any reason given for why he was so set on being leader. Was that ever explained?

And yes, I know about the whole Pinestar deal, but that still doesn't make sense of anything.

"Mapleshade stared back as vicious as a fox. Why was she suddenly so mean? StarClan cats weren't supposed to be mean!" -Crookedjaw's thoughts about Mapleshade (before he discovered she was not a StarClan warrior but a Dark Forest warrior), Crookedstar's Promise, page 234

"'My heart isn't soured by bitterness or guided by revenge.'"- Goosefeather to Mapleshade, referencing her heart, Crookedstar's Promise, page 236.

"She snapped open her eyes and saw Mapleshade. The orange-and-white warrior was gazing at her with a mocking gleam in her eyes. 'Leave me alone!' Ivypaw hissed. 'Are you having a bad dream, dear?' Mapleshade sneered." -A scene in which Ivypaw awakens in the Dark Forest (Ivypaw avoids Mapleshade when she can and had never done anything to provoke this anger from Mapleshade) in Night Whispers, page 263.

Mapleshade, from what I've gathered in the books, did noting in her (real, not Dark Forest) life that would have made her "evil". She had a mate outside of her Clan and was exiled, a broken rule in the Warrior Code, but later in the series this happens almost constantly with no repercussions. She only attempted to ruin lives after she had been placed in the Dark Forest.
When Ashfur was a victim of a broken heart, he attempted to burn his unrequited love's kits alive.

Mapleshade has a bad attitude, and she goes the Dark Forest. Ashfur attempts to murder younglings, and he gets into StarClan. Double standard?

Aug 28, 2012 18:14:37 GMT -6 victorystars said:

Now, for those that do not know, Pinestar abandoned his clan, his mate, and this three kits, in order to become a kittypet, breaking rule 15 of the warrior code.
However, when he died, he still went to Starclan.

This baffled me to no end about the criteria Starclan uses to judge cats.

Apparently it's like they say. Attitude really is everything.

Aug 28, 2012 18:39:20 GMT -6 drheiter said:

By comparison, Mapleshade had a mate from a different Clan, a smaller offense that countless others have gotten away with without so much as a punishment, and was put in the Dark Forest seemingly only for that. I mentioned before that she doesn't seem likely to be that popular among anybody, and could have been put in the Dark Forest simply for a large number of StarClan not wanting her there.

StarClan: Mean Girls edition.


Now, if I may pull a quote from another thread...

Aug 27, 2012 17:49:42 GMT -6 vbfdoee said:

After Darkstripe died, he went to the Dark Forest, the rough cat equivalent of hell. This raises the question: what is it that he did that was evil enough for him to go there, rather than taking a place in StarClan?

He was an ally of Tigerstar's, and so was at the very least complicit in those of Tigerstar's actions that may be assessed as evil: the killing of Redtail in cold blood, framing an innocent cat for murder, the attempted murder of his Clan leader, et cetera. Taken alone, this makes Darkstripe an interesting case. Is knowing that something evil is being planned, yet making no effort to stop it, itself evil? At least for the purposes of the afterlife?

How is the case of Darkstripe -- at least in terms of StarClan's decision-making -- different from the case of Bluestar, given the abuse and negligence that brought about the death of Mosskit? Both cats didn't directly kill anyone (that I remember) but they're both accountable for at least one death that they could have stopped.

[mistytail]

I remember as a younger reader, I had thought that StarClan was a sort of "all dogs go to heaven" sort of deal - that no matter how bad you were in life, you got to be with StarClan because they were your ancestors. But once they introduced the Dark Forest, things just got confusing. Things just don't make sense. It especially baffles me that Ashfur, of all cats, made it into StarClan.

Firstly: He tries to murder Jayfeather, Lionblaze, and Hollyleaf for the sole purpose of making Squirrelflight suffer because she doesn't love him. Typical example of Nice Guy (TM) gone severely awry?

"You don't understand." Ashfur looked at her as though he was seeing her for the first time; his voice was puzzled and petulant. "This is the only way to make you feel the same pain that you caused me. You tore my heart out when you chose Brambleclaw over me. Anything I did to you would never hurt as much. But your kits..." He looked through the flames at Hollyleaf and her brothers, his eyes narrowing to dark blue slits. "If you watch them die, then you'll know the pain I felt."

-Long Shadows, p. 273 American Hardcover

There is literally nothing but wanting to make another cat suffer in his desire to kill the Three. This is perhaps the epitome of sadism in the Warriors series. And yet... He's... A good guy?

And, though I don't own any of the books further than the one above to provide a quote, Ashfur plotted with Hawkfrost in the murder of Firestar, and what was his desire for that? To hurt Squirrelflight and Brambleclaw.

And yet, we are supposed to view this as sympathetic? As an example of being a good but misguided warrior, still worthy of joining the ranks of StarClan despite his erroneous ways?

...StarClan. StarClan, you are drunk.

Aug 29, 2012 13:31:06 GMT -6 Lady Ten said:

Now, if I may pull a quote from another thread...

Aug 27, 2012 17:49:42 GMT -6 vbfdoee said:

After Darkstripe died, he went to the Dark Forest, the rough cat equivalent of hell. This raises the question: what is it that he did that was evil enough for him to go there, rather than taking a place in StarClan?

He was an ally of Tigerstar's, and so was at the very least complicit in those of Tigerstar's actions that may be assessed as evil: the killing of Redtail in cold blood, framing an innocent cat for murder, the attempted murder of his Clan leader, et cetera. Taken alone, this makes Darkstripe an interesting case. Is knowing that something evil is being planned, yet making no effort to stop it, itself evil? At least for the purposes of the afterlife?

How is the case of Darkstripe -- at least in terms of StarClan's decision-making -- different from the case of Bluestar, given the abuse and negligence that brought about the death of Mosskit? Both cats didn't directly kill anyone (that I remember) but they're both accountable for at least one death that they could have stopped.

I think in this example, it has to do with intent. Bluestar did not intend for Mosskit to die, she was trying to bring her (him? I don't actually remember Mosskit's gender at all) to RiverClan, where Oakheart could help protect her and she could be a warrior, like her brother and sister. It was not a cold-blooded murder that lead to Mosskit's death.

Darkstripe, on the other hand, was fully aware of his actions when following Tigerstar. Furthermore, Darkstripe himself states in the Darkest Hour that the warrior code and StarClan are meaningless to him - he puts his loyalty to Tigerstar above everything else, no matter the cost. I can't remember what book he says this in, but I know he does say, "Tigerstar is the only cat worth following in the entire forest."

Bluestar was consciously trying to remedy her mistake of having a mate outside her Clan and prevent an ambitious, violent warrior from gaining a position of authority. Her actions were for the protection of others. Darkstripe's, on the other hand, were for the protection of Tigerstar and himself. So perhaps that has to do with how one gets into StarClan?

Still doesn't explain Ashfur though. That son of a gun should have gone to the Dark Forest without any questions asked.

[vbfdoee]

Re: Mosskit:
In the first series, when Bluestar's talking to Fireheart in Forest of Secrets, Mosskit was referred to as male (when asked what happened to her third kit, she said "He died.") , so I'm inclined to disregard all later re-genderings.

I agree about Ashfur's being sadistic and not deserving a place in StarClan. "His only fault was to love too much", my foot. He was about to murder three of his clanmates in cold blood so that he could get revenge on another one of his clanmates, who had broken his heart. This is a cat that deserves the "good" afterlife, apparently.

I think Misty brings up an interesting point regarding Bluestar versus Darkstripe. Bluestar at the very least had the wellbeing of others in mind and was trying to remedy her transgression against the warrior code, while Darkstripe had very selfish reasons for doing what he did and the warrior code was the furthest thing from his mind. Simply, his buddy (I seem to recall that Tigerclaw had been his mentor?) would be leader and he would have a much better position in the clan than he did already.

Something that keeps coming to my mind when considering Darkstripe is that he was cowardly. He was very much a passive participant/enabler of Tigerclaw's schemes, not sticking his neck out and not doing any of the dirty work. When Tigerclaw was banished and he appealed to Darkstripe to follow him, Darkstripe feigned hurt and betrayal and stayed with ThunderClan, but he was still Tigerclaw's ally. I would say that he was living with "a paw in each world" (incredibly unbecoming of a warrior, to say the least), only I see no reason to think that he even had a paw in ThunderClan at all. So there's about $0.02 worth of my thoughts on Darkstripe.

[leah]

Now, what about cats who don't believe in Starclan like Cloudtail or Mothwing? Yes, neither of them are Clanborn, but Firestar wasn't either, and it's quite obvious that he's in Starclan, and I'm sure that there have been Clanborn cats that don't believe in Starclan. The Tribe of Rushing Water had their own ancestors, so I wonder if there is a sky for such cats, and I wonder if they share that sky with kittypets or not. There must be a sky for kittypets, because Pinestar deliberatly became one, and so far it's been apparent that he is neither in the Dark Forest or in Starclan. Anyway, I find it would be rather unfair for Warriors who strongly believe in the Warrior Code to be sent to the Dark Forest just for not believing in Starclan. Does anyone have thoughts on this?

[mistytail]

Because it's been proven in canon that StarClan exists, they probably are at least offered to go there. Cats such as Pinestar might have chosen to walk away from StarClan, however, either because they didn't feel they were worthy or didn't want to be a part of it. They might wander their own sky, like SkyClan did. Pure conjecture though, the Erins don't seem to be too keen on even discussing what happens to cats who don't believe, especially since they refer to not believing in StarClan as Scourge's fatal flaw. (This is both in The Darkest Hour, after Firestar loses his first life and challenges Scourge a second time, and in the trivia game in the Warriors iPhone app.)

[leah]

Hmm, interesting point. But what about Kittypets? They're not Clan cats, most of them know nothing of Starclan or even the Warriors, so do they have their own sky?

Also, although this is a non-canon question, what about fan-made Clans? My Clans also have a Starclan, but it's not the same exact ones that the canon Clans have because of Location. But it makes me wonder... the ancestors of the cats from the clans and tribes /know/ that there are other skies, but would one Starclan know of another, since they are basically the same? Are the non-canon Starclans branch-offs from the canon one? Mine is, but I wonder how other people with their own Clans would reply.

[lemon]

This thread is cold and dead and I am probably disturbing its peaceful death by rustling around here, but I thought it was worth mentioning on the whole Darkstripe debate that he actually tried to murder a kit. Sorrelkit. (Her warrior name was Sorreltail I think? I might be mistaken.) If I remember correctly, she saw him talking to Tigerstar when Tigerstar had been exiled, and so he fed her deathberries so she couldn't tell anyone. Cinderpelt and Fireheart found her and saved her before she died, though. But still, 'attempted kit-murder' is probably something that would be chalked up on the "dark forest" side of the board.

[leah]

Darkstripe was speaking to Blackfoot and it was the sixth book, actually, when Tigerstar was already leader. He fed her death berries so she wouldn't tell, but Graystripe attacked Darkstripe in time, Firestar heard both sides, Cinderpelt saved Sorrelkit, she told the story from her eyes. He was then exiled where afterward he went to Shadowclan, and also attempted to murder Stonefur and then left Shadowclan after Tigerstar was killed to join Bloodclan, where he attempted to murder Firestar and maybe succeeded at murdering others which we don't know for sure. He did more than attempt to kill a kit but that was probably a huge factor.