Scourge Offspring

[celestialsquared]

Just don't do it.
I can't stress enough how many cliches surround these characters it's ridiculous. For right now, I'll lay down the two most common ones:

My father was evil and now I'm evil too!

These types of characters tend to spawn characters that have no depth and are simply evil or insane just because you say so. Don't do this. Yes, Erin does it all the time, but that is actually an example of bad writing. What are their goals? What caused their behavior? What caused them to follow the same path as their father?

Following this logic, you're saying the children of a serial killer will grow up to be serial killers as well. This is extremely irrational thinking and you're basically saying your character doesn't have a mind of it's own. Characters like these often turn out to be evil sues.

My Father was Scourge and I have special powers/am the best fighter in the clan!

Like his brother, Firestar, Scourge seems to have magical genes and his offspring always become super, mutant cats.They're the best fighter of the clan and often god-mod the entire roleplay (and in most cases, no one calls the rper out for it.)

Like mentioned earlier, this creates a character with little to no depth that is practically better than any other cat. You've created a Mary Sue. What about Scourge is so special that his kids are granted special powers? It makes no sense.

In short, if you're going to create a Scourge offspring character, do be realistic. Don't give it unexplained pelt colors or powers just because of their father. His children are likely to be just regular old cats with their own desires and thoughts.

[vbfdoee]

I could see this type of character pulled off if they were unaware of their father and had a crisis of identity when they learned that it was Scourge. Though the series does have a superfluity of characters with "evil" fathers who struggle to define themselves independently of him.

[Grey]

I can't say I have seen much of this personally (I like to keep a safe distance between myself and the Warriors fandom as much as possible), but it's a really interesting concept that's being brought up here. Not just from a fandom point of view, but from a canonical one.

Due to the choices of anthropomorphism in the books, cats recognise different kinds of relationships, including parental and romantic, and there are clear distinctions between the two. There's a lot that could be discussed about this, I'm sure, but in particular, it's interesting to note the change in parental relationships throughout the series.

My memory is a little vague on details, but for the most part, characters in the first book didn't have much to do with their parents, did they? That was back when queens kept the fathers of their litters pretty hush, and there seemed to be little to no romantic drama (unless you count Bluestar's backstory).

Then there was the whole deal with Tigerclaw/Tigerstar's various offspring in the second series, and parental relationships and blood-ties became incredibly important. That led onto the mess that is the Power of Three. Previously to that, it didn't seem to matter whose father was whose or any of it - not counting the issues of kittypet ancestry from Fireheart and his nephew.

Judging by the second series and onwards, your parents (father especially), are Very Important to who you are. That sounds pretty sexist to me - you know, considering Goldenflower did the actual raising of Bramblekit and Tawnykit - but I suppose the reverse is the Old Leafpool/Squirrelflight Switcheroo, where it's your mother (and, I guess, your Windclan father, so the father-complex is still hanging on) drawing attention to you.

In other words, it's one thing to say it's a bad idea to have a cat related to Scourge, but I'd rather ask /why/. It's definitely true that it's done badly quite a lot, but that doesn't mean it can't also be done well. More importantly to me, though, is how come this concept of having a notorious father is so lodged in the mind of the Warriors fandom.

As you said, Misty, in the Warriors fandom there seems to be this underlying belief that (in the Warriors world) your father is a blueprint for who you will be, exceptionally so if the offspring character is a tom. This is echoed in canon as well, I think, when you look at Hawkfrost and Brambleclaw in comparison to Tigerstar, and
for the time being I'm going to call it the Lion King Effect.

They either follow in their father's footsteps (as seen with Simba and Mufasa), or they rebel against what is expected of them (as seen with Kovu and Scar, although not technically blood-related). The prior is Tigerstar-Hawkfrost, the latter is Tigerstar-Brambleclaw.

There's a few things I want to highlight about this and questions I'd like to ask.

I could see this type of character pulled off if they were unaware of their father and had a crisis of identity when they learned that it was Scourge.

This, for instance, could be something cool to glance at. In saying this, VFD, you are (inadvertently or purposefully) agreeing with the Lion King Effect fans. My question is why an identity crisis is needed in order for the cat to come to terms with his or her father? They obviously weren't raised by Scourge, so they would have no emotional connection there. They were - most likely - raised as a normal clan cat and suddenly knowing their father wouldn't change that, would it?

What I'm having trouble understanding is why paternity is so important in Warriors, and I can't seem to find an answer. It clashes horribly with the old school queen concept of "don't kiss and tell", and why is it that mothers don't have the same Lion King Effect on their kits?

It really seems to be a male-oriented thing. Tawnypelt rejected Tigerstar's offer to train with him in a blink (correct me if I'm wrong) - was that because she's female and immune from weird inherited daddy issues? Or did she just not look enough like Tigerstar for the complex to stick? Is she just the most sensible character in that family? I have no expletive idea.

Following the wisdom of Mewtwo: "The circumstances of ones birth are irrelevant. It is what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are." Branching from there, that includes the genetic code you were given. There's a solid argument that both genetics and environmental factors shape people into who they are, and just because you have the genes of someone does not mean you will be very much like them at all.

Thoughts and comments, everyone? Should a clan cat be alarmed if they have a famous or infamous father, or should it be considered largely irrelevant?

[mistytail]

Jan 31, 2013 5:55:04 GMT -6 Grey said:

It really seems to be a male-oriented thing. Tawnypelt rejected Tigerstar's offer to train with him in a blink (correct me if I'm wrong) - was that because she's female and immune from weird inherited daddy issues? Or did she just not look enough like Tigerstar for the complex to stick? Is she just the most sensible character in that family? I have no expletive idea.

This has angered me so much ever since I was 13. Tawnypelt was suck a freaking strong character throughout all of the first and second series, and she got no credit for any of it. Sure, she joined Tigerstar in ShadowClan when she was an apprentice and ThunderClan was treating her and her brother like garbage for having Tigerstar as their father, but a huge deal was made when Bramblepaw made his famous, "Join you? I'd rather die!" speech. And then he went and joined Tigerstar not more than two years later.

Meanwhile, Tawnypelt's loyalty was always to ShadowClan, not her father. She instantly rejected Tigerstar when he offered to train her and told Brambleclaw he was being an idiot for even considering it, and she got zero credit for any of that. Zero. And I just. asdf;

Quite frankly I think it's another example of misogyny in the books. Because Tawnypelt is a female, her choices are belittled and her accomplishments are swept under the rug, but her "failures" (leaving ThunderClan and joining ShadowClan) are harped on time and time again. It seems like every time Tawnypelt is mentioned, there's this air of mistrust because she willingly joined ShadowClan as an apprentice. Sure, that has to do with the stigma against ShadowClan, but Tawnypelt has proven herself a great, loyal, and honest cat time and time again. But, lolnope, she joined ShadowClan so she ~*~can't be trusted~*~. Gag me.

And then they made her have kittens and everything went to hell. Screw you and your biology as destiny bull, Erin Hunter. (Also, screw you, you totally stole the pairing idea of Tawnypelt and Rowanclaw from that fanfiction I wrote after Twilight came out, you horrid wenches.)

[Grey]

Because Tawnypelt is a female, her choices are belittled and her accomplishments are swept under the rug, but her "failures" (leaving ThunderClan and joining ShadowClan) are harped on time and time again. It seems like every time Tawnypelt is mentioned, there's this air of mistrust because she willingly joined ShadowClan as an apprentice. Sure, that has to do with the stigma against ShadowClan, but Tawnypelt has proven herself a great, loyal, and honest cat time and time again. But, lolnope, she joined ShadowClan so she ~*~can't be trusted~*~

Shadowclan is really the Big Bad Clan in Warriors, and that frustrates me. Yes, they've had a lot of bad leaders recently, but as a whole, they're just ordinary cats doing their duty. They're even following the code, because the leader's word is law.

And yet they're written as though they're irredeemably awful a lot of the time. I understand that it's for children, so there needs to be a clear distinction between good and bad, but I really think that it's badly-handled in this case.

Especially considering Tawnypelt (Tawnypaw at the time) left Thunderclan because of the prejudice against her for being Tigerclaw/Tigerstar's daughter. I'm fairly sure that was her reasoning, wasn't it? She wanted to go to a clan that could get over and look beyond the fact of her father and saw her for a cat in her own right.

If anything, that's just highlighting the flaws in Thunderclan's mentality, not Tawnypaw/Tawnypelt's. If Thunderclan was going to have such a bias against an apprentice just because her dad wasn't a nice person, I wouldn't want to be in that clan either. The whole point of the clan is to support each other, so if Thunderclan is incapable of that, then Tawnypaw/Tawnypelt made the smart decision to go where she could be supported and appreciated as an individual, not just to progeny of someone else.

Good one, Thunderclan.

[celestialsquared]

Isn't the whole father thing in animal series common, though? How many times have I seen a story where a mother is telling her children about their father and he is almost always given an air of mystery and wonder. And all the children are like, "Wow, dad was so cool!"

Very few characters want to be like their mother. And it kind of puts pressure on the males to be someone great so they too can be a living legend. :/

[Grey]

Isn't the whole father thing in animal series common, though?

I was curious, so I went to a friend and she pointed out some interesting points and writings on the subject. It's not just in animal literature. In an overwhelming amount of media (film and books), there's a father/child (especially son) complex going on, and mothers take a back-seat to it, which is exactly what this is all about.

Very few characters want to be like their mother.

In Disney, for example (which was the topic of the writings she showed me), you have:

Mulan trying to impress/protect her father.
Tarzan trying to earn the respect of his adoptive father, Kerchak.
Pocahontas trying to get her father to respect her choices.
Ariel, the little mermaid, trying to get her father to respect her choices.
Hercules trying to find his real father, achieve glory and reunite with him.
Jasmine trying to get her father to respect her choices.
Kidagakash (commonly called Kida) trying to live up to her father's expectations.
Jim Hawkins, from Treasure Planet, trying to get over his father's abandonment of him.
(Not Disney, but applicable) Kayley, from Quest for Camelot, trying to live up to her father's legend.

So yeah, that's a few reasonably mainstream child-audience examples of fathers being the important relationship, and mothers being largely forgotten or being made to be "just the mother" (or, in some cases, deceased).

And it kind of puts pressure on the males to be someone great so they too can be a living legend.

I actually saw a quote on this topic on tumblr the other day, and saved it.

“If a young woman in middle school or high school hangs up a poster of Barack Obama in her room, this is seen as acceptable. It’s fine for women to admire men and want to be like them.
If a young man (the same age) hangs up a poster of Hillary Clinton in his room, this is seen as odd (maybe even troubling, is he gay? Oh no!).

Society tells us young men can’t think of women as role models, unless they’re a family member, whereas young women can admire and seek to emulate anyone, regardless of gender.

If you’re a young man, and if you have a poster on your wall with a woman, she had better be half-naked in a bikini, even if the Ronald Reagan or Gen. Patton poster next to it obviously features the man fully-clothed.

Young men are not to taught to think of women as role models. They are taught to think of them as either family members or sexual objects. There is no other category presented.”

I think this speaks volumes.

I'm also curious about why, of most other characters (of which there are undoubtedly many), has Scourge been chosen by so many fans as "the character". Maybe I'm just ignorant about fandom in Warriors, but it does appear that the character of Scourge gets the most (undeserved) love. He's only in it for one book - not counting spin-off manga stories - and his whole purpose is to end Tigerstar and be the Big Bad Guy for Firestar to defeat.

And despite the fact he's otherwise a very flat character, he gets a lot of fan-attention, whether through shipping with OCs or canon clan-cats, or as having OCs that are related to him (especially as offspring). I'm wondering what traits he has that has brought all this about.

Does anyone have any theories?

(I've noticed that the Homestuck 'Scourge' was - and maybe still is? - Gamzee Makara for a while there, and that's led me to believe that many fans favour dangerous characters for this kind of treatment? Does anyone more knowledgeable than me on fandom want to explain these trends, because that would be stellar.)

[railroadcrossing]

I think people like character like scourge and gamzee is because they're "edgy" or whatever. For some strange reason they really like it when a character does something no one should be able to get away with lawfully or morally. A lot of people love the rebellious "I do what I want and I know you can't stop me" attitudes, probably similar to a phase they are going through or about to go through. Especially if they are something ridiculous like an alien clown or a tiny black kittycat. They can laugh or aww and then turn around and make them out to be terrifying monster, but since the endearing factor is still there they feel like they can weave an infinite amount of webs to get them out of it, rightfully or not.
They seem to like evil characters in general too for the power factor I assume. Scourge the leader of bloodclan, which took a collaboration of any remaining honorable warrior to take down, and Gamzee Makara who still hasn't died despite murdering half the troll cast and being mortally wounded several times. Another addition to that is, unfortunately, some people find an attractive factor in that. Thus the Oncler and Loki fangirls/guys/whatever. Any trip to TWW would let you know how "smexy" the fandom thinks Scourge is.

This is about all I know on the subject of this. These kinds of obsessive fans are kind of silly if you ask me but whatever floats their boats I guess.

[Grey]

For some strange reason they really like it when a character does something no one should be able to get away with lawfully or morally.

That is a really great point. I don't think I ever thought of the cathartic effect of a character like that.

[Mistytail 2.0]

Also the level of violence expressed by these types of characters is probably a good outlet or immature aggression, so that's another plus for fans.