Was Brambleclaw right to be mad at Squirrelflight?

[celestialsquared]

The age old question. It seems the majority of the fandom would overwhelmingly say "YES!!!11!" but I don't know if I'm seeing it from a different perspective, or i'm just not a crazy fangirl.

From Brambleclaw's perspective, he was in every right to be mad. I can just imagine if a man had spent a few years raising a child he thought was his, just to find out it wasn't his child at all, but his sister-in-law's. It would hurt to spend so much time and energy just to find out they're not who you thought they were. Arguably, they're still his relatives and he should care about them, but I think there's a different type of love given to nephews and nieces.
And remember, they're cats. Cats would most definitely care about their own offspring more than a distant relative, so one can imagine Brambleclaw's heartbreak. To top it off, Hollysue goes off and tells all the clans everyone's personal biz. Being the deputy of ThunderClan, this is highly embarrassing! No one in any political position would ever want to be put on the spot like this, it's the quickest way to ruin someone's reputation. So I can understand the Brambleclaw chose Squirrelflight to vent out all his frustration on.

From Squirrelflight's perspective, she was put in a tight spot from the beginning. Since they were first introduced in the second arc, they've been known to be close (more close than Bluefur and Snowfur had ever been /shot). Leafpool comes back from her adventure with Crowfeather and woopie-doo, she's preggers. How does one expect anything different? She's the only medicine cat at the time, so she knows she has to keep her position for the sake of the clan. So what does she do? She dumps her kits on Squirrelflight. What choice did she have but to take 'em in? It was either that or let her sister's already ruined reputation be completely shredded.
I have no idea how close littermates are in real life (I imagine it's not too close as they're competing for food), but these are anthropomorphic cats, so I'm to assume that they can get as close as human sisters can get. So I can understand why she decided to help her sis out. Whether telling Brambleclaw the truth or not would've made any difference is beyond me, but I imagine she didn't because she thought Bramble had enough things to worry about.

Given these two perspectives I personally don't think Bramble had to be as angry about it as he was in the books. They're grown cats, I'm sure they could've found a better solution than having a whole childish "I'm mad at you" phase.

[Grey]

It seems the majority of the fandom would overwhelmingly say "YES!!!11!" but I don't know if I'm seeing it from a different perspective, or i'm just not a crazy fangirl.

Oh dear.

I think I'm going to end up agreeing with the fangirls... I've just glanced through the section where it all comes out at the Gathering and honestly, I think Brambleclaw's reaction is reasonable.

That's not to say I can't empathise with Squirrelflight's plight, but really, she betrayed Brambleclaw badly. It's a pretty personal assault on him. She didn't trust him (her own mate) enough to tell him the truth, and let him believe a lie for a very long time. Anyone is going to be enraged and hurt by that, regardless of what the lie is about.

By not trusting him she's either saying, "I can't trust you; you're not trustworthy enough for my secret"; or "it's got nothing to do with you, mind your own business". If they're mates and she's tricked him into thinking they're his kits, it's definitely his business. And if it's the prior, that's an enormous slander against him. She's calling him inadequate, and she's doing it in front of all the clans.

That's beyond embarrassing. It's mortifying. How do you think well of yourself if your own mate doesn't think you're good enough? How would any other cat respect you then? She mightn't have meant it like that (maybe she just didn't want to bother him, whatever) but that's how it's going to be read.

It's almost the whole "cuckold" deal of medieval times, albeit a little altered. It's kind of ingrained in much of the male/masculine psyche to take serious offense at an adulterous sort of female partner. In literature, when this situation (or similar) occurs, it tends to rattle the guy's confidence a lot.

I expect that Brambleclaw has been incredibly rattled by the whole ordeal, and I really don't expect him to forgive Squirrelflight in a hurry (or maybe at all). I don't think he'd readily trust her again, not as he did in any case.

While I'm not sure what his immature behaviour after the event was, I think he's fairly justified in sulking. His pride's been shredded and his life's a lie.

[celestialsquared]

Oct 23, 2012 21:10:37 GMT -6 Grey said:

By not trusting him she's either saying, "I can't trust you; you're not trustworthy enough for my secret"; or "it's got nothing to do with you, mind your own business". If they're mates and she's tricked him into thinking they're his kits, it's definitely his business. And if it's the prior, that's an enormous slander against him. She's calling him inadequate, and she's doing it in front of all the clans.

And she would've gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for those meddling kids. That's definitely the main issue with what Squirrelflight had done. I don't really understand why she didn't involve him in her little plot, especially since it involves him acting like a father. If anything, you would think him knowing would actually help out a little. At least then you wouldn't have to sneak around behind his back.
I was actually more interested on how their relationship was going than the actual main characters during the fourth arc, which is probably why I kept reading for as long as I did. It's a shame the Erins left an actually interesting romance plot buried under the ridiculous "Look I have powers!" plot.

[Grey]

And she would've gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for those meddling kids.

Swoon. Wowzers. Nice call.

That's definitely the main issue with what Squirrelflight had done. I don't really understand why she didn't involve him in her little plot, especially since it involves him acting like a father.

If she'd told him, he probably would have been okay with the whole thing, especially if he did actually love her, which he seemed to. He would have then chosen to accept the responsibility of fatherhood, and when everything came to light, he'd at least be able to say he knew it was happening and keep his dignity that way.

I can't work out why Squirrelflight didn't tell him in the first place. Maybe because she thought he would reject her/the kits, or treat them differently?

[Lady Ten]

Full disclosure:

1) I haven't even read this part of the series.
2) Squirrelflight shouldn't have lied, that was dumb.*

But I want to make a conceptual post.

So the litter of three wasn't biologically fathered by Brambleclaw. So what? Assuming he has an emotional attachment to them and some sort of paternal relationship, on the basis of thinking himself their sire, that doesn't all evaporate now that the truth is known. He can still continue his relationship with them and continue caring for and about them as he always did. So why does it matter that they're not as genetically similar to him as he thought? Why is the origin of their DNA such a significant piece of information? What difference does it make whom a litter was born to? Does ThunderClan assign prestige and status on the basis of offspring? Why is this something any of them attach such significance to? I understand the bit about Leafpool's affair being inappropriate, but the fact that Brambleclaw is not their sire, that itself, does that impact him at all beyond his relationship with Squirrelflight? It's not as though they were fathered by some sickly wuss, thereby giving them a predisposition to disease or other bad genes. They're still a healthy litter with a close kinship to his mate. Does the fact that his own actual coding acids don't reside in their bodies really put a bee in his bonnet?

As a side note, whatever's going on here, I highly disapprove of the way much fantasy literature puts an emphasis on bloodline and ancestry. It comes off as biological determinism.


* What is it with ThunderClan cats keeping secrets from each other? Secrets that wouldn't really have any dire consequences if they were made known? And which end up causing more drama because they were kept secret? How often has this happened, exactly? Can we get a thread on this?

[Grey]

So what? Assuming he has an emotional attachment to them and some sort of paternal relationship, on the basis of thinking himself their sire, that doesn't all evaporate now that the truth is known.

I expect it would be a bit awkward or otherwise uncomfortable for a little while for the three and Brambleclaw, but he's still their father in a social and emotional sense and I wouldn't expect that to change (unless Brambleclaw is a shallow and rather heartless guy, which he doesn't seem to be - correct me if I'm wrong, of course, I can't remember all that much about him).

If he abandons the Lionblaze, Hollyleaf and Jayfeather because they're not genetically related to him, he's an completely expletive bad person. I don't know how someone could do that, unless you really didn't care about them in the first place.

Why is the origin of their DNA such a significant piece of information? What difference does it make whom a litter was born to?

I assume it would be because he put time, effort and affection into raising them.

A clan may be meant to raise the next generation as a unit, or so they try to make it sound, but from an emotional perspective, that's definitely not how Erin Hunter has written Warriors. If cats weren't meant to care so much about the genetics of their offspring, the couples wouldn't be monogamous or seemingly permanent fixtures in clan life. They'd do what they do, and the queens would have kittens. No one would ask who the father was, because no one cared.

If Brambleclaw was going to be emotionally invested in this particular litter of Squirrelflight's, he'd have to have a reason to be and genetics is generally the accepted reason for many animals, and to a certain extent, humans as well. Exactly how invested he would be in the kits' well-being and also how important this genetic continuation is to him, and to all other cats in the series, is more a question of anthropomorphism.

Does ThunderClan assign prestige and status on the basis of offspring?

I'd like to think that it doesn't, but Firestar and his relatives tend to get away with a lot. Squirrelflight and Leafpool are both his daughters, though, so I don't think social status has much to do with it? Unless I've misunderstood you.

They're still a healthy litter with a close kinship to his mate. Does the fact that his own actual coding acids don't reside in their bodies really put a bee in his bonnet?

I think it's more the personal slight that the whole affair and Squirrelflight's lie threw on him that got him to unleash his rage. As well as this, though, I do think he'd be reasonably peeved about his kits not, genetically, being his kits, but I think that would still be considered a dozen times better than if Squirrelflight was their true mother and another tom was their father.

In a lot of ways, Brambleclaw has much to be grateful for. Squirrelflight is actually unable to have kits herself, I believe, so her adoption of the Leafpool's three meant that Brambleclaw actually had the experience of being a father - and a fairly proud one. Notwithstanding Jayfeather's blindness, the kittens were all healthy and managed to survive until adulthood with minimal heartache for Brambleclaw. I think this, and the fact he does have an emotional connection to them anyway, will override any spats about his failure to pass on his genes.

Squirrelflight should have just told him in the first place and saved everyone all this nonsense.

As a side note, whatever's going on here, I highly disapprove of the way much fantasy literature puts an emphasis on bloodline and ancestry. It comes off as biological determinism.

Yes, this. I don't think there's too much harm in individual couples having the security of knowing their offspring are, in fact, their genetic offspring, but when you have wide-scale or institutionalised systems that support this kind of theory, that's dangerous, silly and inaccurate. That's along the lines of pureblood wizard mentality, and it's not acceptable.

I mean, I have an absolute hatred for monarchy (or other political factions) based on genetic heritage, rather than individual achievement. Not exactly the same topic but I do think that genetic heritage is overrated. I also think that familial relationships based on genetics, such as parents and children or sibling, are likewise overrated, though I think it's a pretty unpopular opinion. This is mainly because I don't see why sharing some of the same genotype/phenotype is a reason for loyalty or any other expected things that come along with it.

[saphirabunny]

I have mixed feelings about this. I do believe that Brambleclaw had a right to become angry and upset about this. However, considering his previous track-record with Squirrelflight, they had had many varying problems and always gotten over them. The way that I always saw Brambleclaw's characterization, this extreme anger and coldness he treats Squirrelflight with for pretty much the rest of this plot are not in line with him. Yeah he would have been upset with her for a bit, but at some point I believe he would have been able to find room in his heart to forgive her. I have always felt that this is yet another mischaracterization of their own characters by the Erins to create drama between characters that really should not have been there, or in the very least like this case with Brambleclaw and Squirrelflight, should not have been quite as big. The Erins have always kind of had trouble staying consistent with their characters so this is no surprise. Maybe I'm biased, but I think the multiple dramatic mischaracterizations that happened in the third series, ESPECIALLY with Brambleclaw and Ashfur, contributed to making it one of the worst arcs.

[mistytail]

I think he had every right to be furious with her.

Consider:

She faked a pregnancy.
She faked a pregnancy to cover for her medicine cat sister.
She faked a pregnancy to cover for her medicine cat sister who got pregnant by a tom from another Clan.
She faked a pregnancy to cover for her medicine cat sister who got pregnant by a tom from another Clan that she ran away with and abandoned ThunderClan for.
She took in the kits.
She took in the kits knowing she wouldn't be able to nurse them properly.
She took in the kits knowing she wouldn't be able to nurse them properly because she couldn't have kits of her own.
She told Brambleclaw these were his kits.
She told Brambleclaw these were his kits knowing she couldn't have kits of her own.
She told Brambleclaw these were his kits knowing she couldn't have kits of her own to cover up for her medicine cat sister who got pregnant by a tom from another Clan that she ran away and abandoned their Clan for.
She raised these kits like her own.
Brambleclaw raised these kits like his own.
"Oops, no, sorry sweetie, these aren't actually your kits, I can't have them, I did it to cover for my medicine cat sister who got pregnant by a tom from another Clan and ran away with, abandoning our Clan. Forgive me?"
"... Yeah. No."

While I understand Squirrelflight's plight to keep her sister safe, and while I will never think any punishment ThunderClan gives Leafpool so long as she remains in ThunderClan will ever be good enough, Brambleclaw was betrayed horribly.

The only logical explanation I could think of for Squirrelflight not telling Brambleclaw was her knowledge that Tigerstar and Hawkfrost could visit his dreams, and they clearly had a very real effect on living cats. By knowing Leafpool's secret through Brambleclaw, Tigerstar and/or Hawkfrost may have been able to cause serious damage to ThunderClan.

But then again, Hollyleaf did a bang-up job of that so there was really no point.

If he took his anger out on Jayfeather, Lionblaze, and Hollyleaf, that would be a problem. The three of them didn't do anything wrong, they were the victims of horrible circumstance. Furthermore, to those three, Squirrelflight and Brambleclaw would always be their parents, since they were the two cats that raised them. However, Squirrelflight did commit a horrible transgression against Brambleclaw, and he had every right to be angry with her. I think it is a transgression that could be forgiven, but not quickly.