Anyone want to talk Tribe naming?

[saphirabunny]

So I've been doing quite a bit of research into what little we know about the Tribe and there are many points which I found to be pretty inconsistent. Naming was one of them. The kits are named after the first thing the mother sees, according to canon. But Rock even mentions that it's surprising that more cats are named "Wall of Cave" or "Floor of Cave". After all, all the mother can see is the Cave, other cats and the waterfall. She cannot see outside the Cave.

Ok so maybe she goes outside? Except maybe not. It's dangerous for a single healthy cat to be out there. What about a pregnant cat and her kits? Way too dangerous to risk. They would have to be guarded until the kits could be brought inside the Cave, but even if they could spare the paws to do that, why would they? Wouldn't it just be safer and simpler for the mother to give birth inside the Cave?

One thing I noted was that most of the names had a color association. Such as Night of No Stars, who is a black cat. So what if what the mother was "seeing" was whatever she thought of when she looked at her kit?

But then what about sounds? I thought of that too. If you have a cat named say... Cry of Hunting Hawk(who is a Tribe OC of mine), I think of the hawk's color which is why he is a brown tabby. If the mother is thinking of/hearing the noise of the animal or some sort of action, don't you think she'd also be thinking of the color associated with it? While I don't believe every name has an exact color representation as is often the belief of traditional warrior naming with Clan kits, the appearance should at least not be outlandish when looking at the cats themselves since it's really how the mother feels about it. Like in the case of Brook where Small Fish Swim, maybe her mother was thinking of the brown rocks? Looking at the description of the character through the eyes of the mother, what would she first think of when she saw the kit? What things would she personally associate the color with on first site? That's how I see Tribe naming.

Part of what is so great, and not so great, about the Tribe is their lax naming rules. With Tribe naming, it's mostly just common sense.


This is what I think. I hope it made sense! But it's something I've been thinking about for a while and I wanted someone else's opinion on it. What do you guys think?

[vbfdoee]

I don't really have an interpretation of their names. I just love them; it's like having a haiku for a name.

[mistytail]

This is why I wish the Erins went into more detail about the Tribe, since they visited them often enough, or at least give us the information through Stormfur and Brook.

I think the name given to the kit should have a color correlation as well as being related to the mother's surroundings. There could be a Tribe ceremony where, after the kits are born, have eaten for the first time, and fall asleep, the mother gets up and leaves them for a few moments and steps outside to observe the surroundings, and she names her kits after the most striking things she sees or hears.

[vbfdoee]

I really want to know more about Tribe culture. Like their ceremonies and their stories and stuff. It sounds really fascinating *le wistful sign*.

[Grey]

I honestly don't have anything against Tribe naming, except the fact that I can't make any sense of it. People have asked in about it before and I just answer, "not my area".

I like the name Night of No Stars, though. I think it's my favourite.

[mistytail]

*gasp!*

Grey? Having favorites?!

(I'm teasing you ;u; I don't mean to be a jerk.)

Tribe names are so great and so underrated. Do you know how many Tribe urls I've hoarded on Tumblr? A ton. It's great.

[pyro]

A while ago I started developing a Tribe Naming system for FoF for whenever we introduce the Tribe. |8 Because honestly, I find the whole 'naming their kits for whatever they see first' kind of...I don't. I'm not a fan.

SO. This is what I did:

Kits are given a name that has to do with appearance, nature (personality), the circumstances of their birth, or their mother's hopes for them [large kit might be 'Tallest Poppy' or 'Bear']. The later case becomes something for the apprentice to work to live up to. They keep this name until a notable event in their apprenticehood occurs (bringing down a hawk single-pawed or something. /shot) OR until they 'graduate' from apprenticehood. Either way, their name undergoes a change once they take that step into ~adulthood~. The 'next' name may either build off their current name, or be entirely different. It indicates, usually:
appearance + personality
appearance + skill
appearance + significant event
appearance + appearance

Names often change over time. Parts being added, subtracted, changed, etc as a cat progresses through life. Older cats may have an extremely long list of titles under their belt. They can also, just as easily, have names as short and meh as they did when they graduated from their apprenticeship.

I would like to ~tentatively~ say that longer names are more sought after and that cats will actively try to do acts of bravery/valor/cunning in hopes of bettering their names.

Names are almost like a glance at a cat and their history. Long names=a life fully lived, neh? Short names=a pretty boring life, pretty boring cat. Maybe even a coward with no outstanding deeds to speak of.
------

That system offered/said, I always did like the Tribe names even if the way they started never made sense to me. They have a certain. mm. flow to them. And there's a lot more wiggle room as far as the actual naming goes.

[saphirabunny]

Oct 10, 2012 19:41:37 GMT -6 @mistytail said:

This is why I wish the Erins went into more detail about the Tribe, since they visited them often enough, or at least give us the information through Stormfur and Brook.

I think the name given to the kit should have a color correlation as well as being related to the mother's surroundings. There could be a Tribe ceremony where, after the kits are born, have eaten for the first time, and fall asleep, the mother gets up and leaves them for a few moments and steps outside to observe the surroundings, and she names her kits after the most striking things she sees or hears.

Ooooo I like that idea! I keep thinking it would be the first thing after the kits were born, but your suggestion makes a little more sense. Considering that the Tribe does have a lot of ceremony around them it would be awesome if that was how it worked. Honestly I really feel there should be color connected. I mean it would be dumb to call a white cat Night of No Stars. We look at that name and we thing he's a black cat. All my research is leading up to making a tumblr about creating and naming Tribes and Tribe cats so if I give you credit would you mind me using this idea?

Oct 10, 2012 19:54:39 GMT -6 vbfdoee said:

I really want to know more about Tribe culture. Like their ceremonies and their stories and stuff. It sounds really fascinating *le wistful sign*.

Yeah I scoured the books and the wiki for all the info I could. But that doesn't tell us much about their culture and stories. To be honest, I'd find it fun to make some fan ideas up, you know?

Oct 10, 2012 20:00:26 GMT -6 Grey said:

I honestly don't have anything against Tribe naming, except the fact that I can't make any sense of it. People have asked in about it before and I just answer, "not my area".

h33h33 yeah I noticed. I've always been interested in the Tribe, but honestly it was those asks you got that got me to start thinking about my own theories and possibly making a blog that people could go to about Tribe naming, although honestly Tribes are such a small part of the book that they aren't very popular and some of the fan Tribes are more of Clans than Tribes in my opinion. Part of what makes a Tribe what it is is the harsh environment. When you throw them in a lush environment you take away all need for their culture and might as well make a Clan.

[saphirabunny]

pyro: See part of what I love about Tribe names is the fact that they don't change. I am a HUGE fan of the whole "name at birth". It's almost like it's something that they have to grow into and honor. Even if it just seems like the most random name ever, the cats have to tough it out almost like a symbol of their harsh life as a Tribe cat.

[mistytail]

Oct 10, 2012 20:29:26 GMT -6 pyro said:

A while ago I started developing a Tribe Naming system for FoF for whenever we introduce the Tribe. |8 Because honestly, I find the whole 'naming their kits for whatever they see first' kind of...I don't. I'm not a fan.

SO. This is what I did:

Kits are given a name that has to do with appearance, nature (personality), the circumstances of their birth, or their mother's hopes for them [large kit might be 'Tallest Poppy' or 'Bear']. The later case becomes something for the apprentice to work to live up to. They keep this name until a notable event in their apprenticehood occurs (bringing down a hawk single-pawed or something. /shot) OR until they 'graduate' from apprenticehood. Either way, their name undergoes a change once they take that step into ~adulthood~. The 'next' name may either build off their current name, or be entirely different. It indicates, usually:
appearance + personality
appearance + skill
appearance + significant event
appearance + appearance

Names often change over time. Parts being added, subtracted, changed, etc as a cat progresses through life. Older cats may have an extremely long list of titles under their belt. They can also, just as easily, have names as short and meh as they did when they graduated from their apprenticeship.

I would like to ~tentatively~ say that longer names are more sought after and that cats will actively try to do acts of bravery/valor/cunning in hopes of bettering their names.

Names are almost like a glance at a cat and their history. Long names=a life fully lived, neh? Short names=a pretty boring life, pretty boring cat. Maybe even a coward with no outstanding deeds to speak of.

Can you take us through this with a hypothetical cat? I'm reading and re-reading this and maybe it's the lack of sleep and nervousness about going into surgery tomorrow, but I'm just not understanding it

Also, Bunny, yes, of course you could!! I would be honored if you did ;w;

[pyro]

Can you take us through this with a hypothetical cat?

Okay. So. Mamma Cat gives birth to a little lightish brown tabby. Names him 'Little Coyote'. Little Coyote goes through his training and develops a reputation for his speed. When he comes of age he is ready for a more 'mature' name and is given 'Swift Coyote'. As he goes through his life he proves a capable lookout for the Tribe with sharp eye for predators. Closer comrades may begin to call him 'Swift Coyote that/who Watches the Hawk', and if they believe he deserves such an addition than the rest of the Tribe will eventually call him by that name as well.

Now say during a battle he sustains a major injury to his leg and now walks with a limp. Not so swift. The Tribe would gradually stop addressing him as 'Swift Coyote', so that he would become 'Coyote that Watches the Hawk'.

The names fluctuate, as do secondary titles. Our Coyote here may die 'Coyote that Watches the Hawk, the snake you do not see [if he was particularly cunning/stealthy in addition to being a lookout], old as The Stories [if he was old enough to have lived during the time in which more popular tales may be set], quick laugh [if he was a rather jovial spirit]. So, in addition to the official name, the cats gain these sort of 'titles' that honor their life + other attributes that are significant, but perhaps not so significant as to warrant a change to his actual name, AND THAT is where the really long names/lists of titles come in.

I haven't slept in I don't know how long, I apologize if I'm still not making sense. I sense that I'm getting rambly and out there.

However the titles and names might not always be for good things. I see the Tribe as being very...like...you're only honored if you deserve it. Good names aren't a handout to make you feel good. Say Coyote was a hopeless clutz. They might call him 'Coyote that Stumbles' because he isn't as surefooted as the others of his tribe. If he doesn't measure up, he shouldn't have a name worthy of a cat who does. He has to earn it.

He could be 'coyote that watches the hawk and leaps too soon' ----> implying that he is watchful, but jumps to conclusions too soon perhaps. or 'coyote that sees the hawk and leaps too soon' -----> implying not necessarily that he's watchful, but that he has a sharp eye (and still jumps the gun).

A lot of this is loosely based on the translations of native american name and their naming style. and me just overthinking things as i often do

THIS [below] is a better explanation/gives a better idea of where i'm coming from than what my sleep-deprived mind is barfing up I think. >>;

The Salish tribe follows a “naming trail” in which the name given to a baby by his parents at birth (usually a virtue or trait the parents hope for the baby) and is eventually replaced during adolescence with another name which is given by the tribal leader at a ceremony called the Jump Dances. This name normally signifies a gift or strength for which the child is known. Similarly, as an adult, another name might be granted, but this name would reflect expectations or something for the person to live up to

Traditionally without family names, the Sioux (Lakota, Nakota and Dakota) have a complicated naming system with six classes of names: birth order, honor , special deed, nicknames, secret and spirit names. The first name was given based on the gender and birth position of the child, and a person could have several names during his lifetime. Names were adapted to the individual at the time they were given to them. For example, it is said that Chief Sitting Bull was called “Jumping Badger” as a boy, but also nicknamed “Slow” because he took extra time to do things.

[saphirabunny]

pyro: That all seems much more complex than it has to be. Cool idea I suppose, but not something I'd be a fan of using.

[leah]

I like to think that the mother names the kit after what they think of when they see the kit. That can mean color correlation; but doesn't always have to be. Sometimes you can see something black and think of something brown. This allows for Tribe Names to use words in their names that aren't always accepted in Warrior Names, like Plant and Water names (like Leaves and Lakes).

As an example, say I were a mother who had two kits. One was a white kit, and it made me think of the sun shining on the water. I'd probably the name the kit "Sun That Shines on Water". (or something like that). Say the other kit is brown, and it makes me think of leaves. I could call the kit something like "Leaf of Falling Tree".

Yeah, I'm not the best when it comes to Tribe Naming, but that's just how I see it. I see it as something very simple.

[saphirabunny]

@pinkmon: Hmm yeah I can see what you mean. In my opinion, since it IS the mother choosing the name, it has always felt to me what she feels about the kit. I mean true canon says it's supposedly the "first thing the mother sees" but how do we really know that it was the first think she saw? that's kind of objective since the other cats aren't in her head, don't know what she is thinking. When she is naming her kit she could be thinking any number of things, her hopes for the kit, who the kit will grow up to be etc. So while maybe she saw something else first, she might have been drawn to another thing which caused her to choose it as the kit's name. No one can say it WASN'T the first thing she saw or heard, and with her own worries of being a new mother I feel like even she herself can't say it wasn't the first thing she saw/heard. That's why I believe they are named after the object or sound that catches the attention of the mother when thinking about her kit.

That's part of why I said earlier that I feel like they have to grow into their names. This is the mother's wish for them. They have to decide, who am I? What are my real skills and talents? Each name is symbolic of who they are and who they could be. And they are stuck with the name, just like they are stuck with what the have, with their path in the Tribe. But just like everything in life it is something to overcome, another challenge. So while the naming process itself is rather simple, what it could mean to cats who have a harsh environment to survive in?

In my thought, Sun That Shines on Water is perfectly acceptable because I think of a light color cat. Some things, like Night of No Stars, make you think of a color. Others make you think of a shade of pelt, such as light colored pelts(of course that brings me to the whole thing of my believe that there shouldn't be light colored cats in Tribes but that's something else). Now that I think about it, I suppose that's why I feel a little uncomfortable assigning EXACT colors to Tribe names. I think that just doesn't work. But, I think it would be a bit silly if Sun That Shines on Water was a black cat, wouldn't you? So really it's more of a common sense thing when naming a cat. Taking into account the color or shade of pelt while naming would be in there when the mother names them.

Talking about plant and water names, this is exactly why I feel using sun, moon and star are acceptable in Tribe naming. But not the names of any big cats because they don't have the same legends as the Clans and they didn't know what a puma was when Sharptooth came. Plus its not like they are going to SEE those creatures anyway so it goes against the naming process.