the -tongue suffix

[claire]

So I personally am a fan of this. I've never seen it used in canon, but many feisty she-cats are described as "sharp-tongued", which obviously refers to their biting words. My current OC is called Silvertongue, named for his silver tabby coat as a kit, and then later given the -tongue suffix for his incredible way with words and how easily diplomacy and persuading others comes to him.

I wanted to know what you guys all thought of this as a suffix. While it isn't canon, I always thought of it as not only a unique, but also acceptable and plausible suffix.

[Grey]

Hey, Claire. Congratulations on making a post so quickly - it took me ages to make my first thread here.

However, I'm not of the same opinion when it comes to -tongue. Not because it's not canon (though, as a traditionalist, I won't deny that's a key factor) but more importantly because of the implication.

For the clans, it appears to be rare for them to solve issues by discussion. It seems to boil into battle one way or another; that's just how it is. I don't doubt that some cats are more eloquent and charismatic than others, but I'm not sure exactly how beneficial that is as a skill. Nevertheless, it's a skill, so theoretically, it deserves a suffix.

I disagree.

given the -tongue suffix for his incredible way with words and how easily diplomacy and persuading others comes to him.

This sounds like a good thing, but it's not. This is the same issue with the implications of -throat or -song, and similar. It's a great skill to have, but a bad thing to be named after.

Why?

Persuasion. If a cat is grand at persuading others, they're manipulative. You can't talk to them without wondering who is making the choices in the conversation. If a cat is good with words and thinking on their feet, they are going to be an excellent liar. Diplomacy is, essentially, compromising so that the end result improves - I wonder how well that translates to cats. Is it weakness to do that? I don't know.

In short, a cat with these skills is destined to be the leader. It's impossible to avoid that. If they are so socially adept, so verbally and mentally nimble and so blithely able to bend others to their will, they will be the leader of the clan. Or, if not the leader, a threat to leadership.

"If you can talk eloquently, you’re already three steps ahead of the rest. Communication is vital, especially in a clan, but to be superb at it, you’re a threat to the current leader’s authority. You’re pretty much a living weapon of potential dissension." - from a post about -throat, which is the same implication as -tongue.

If I knew a cat was named for their ability in rhetoric, I'd be wary of them. Words are insidious weapons, and a talent with them isn't the best thing to be named for. To borrow from Lao-Tzu:

"Truthful words are not beautiful;
beautiful words are not truthful.
Good words are not persuasive;
persuasive words are not good."

I think this is a pretty good summary of the clan's perspective on persuasive cats.

[claire]

Thank you. I've been wondering about this suffix ever since I thought about it, so I was really eager to get educated opinions on it.

That was really insightful, thank you. I never thought of the threat to leadership, but wouldn't that apply to any cat that had a way with words, even if they aren't named so? Though if I'm understanding right, your meaning is that a leader wouldn't name their warrior after a trait that could be potentially threatening to them. Then, though, I would see the character of the cat coming into question; whether or not he is a "good" cat or a "bad" cat and how dedicated they are to the Code.

Though either way I can see that you're right, it isn't likely that he would be named that way. I would change it if he wasn't already active in the roleplay, though I at least now know that for future naming. Thank you

[Grey]

I never thought of the threat to leadership, but wouldn't that apply to any cat that had a way with words, even if they aren't named so?

This is true. Almost every trait imaginable has a positive and a negative side. With some, though, the 'negative' implication is greater than the positive one, so it's best not to use them. A -claw cat could be dangerous or helpful; but all that the suffix implies is the skill in battle.

-tongue doesn't have this luxury. If a cat is talented with words, they have a very great power and one that is almost inevitably 'negative' (negative hereby having the meaning of controlling others, subtly or otherwise).

Though if I'm understanding right, your meaning is that a leader wouldn't name their warrior after a trait that could be potentially threatening to them.

Well, in a sense. The problem with -tongue is the implication of authority. To re-use the -claw example, a leader would be aware that the cat is strong and good in a fight, and if the cat wanted to turn on them, they'd probably be in a bit of a fix. However, all warriors are named with the inherent understanding that they are not going to turn traitor - that's against the rules. All cats must be loyal.

-tongue doesn't imply the cat isn't loyal, but it challenges the leader's authority. "Look at me, I'm clever and I can make you do anything" is what -tongue implies, and naturally, no leader's going to be okay with that sentiment.

I would change it if he wasn't already active in the roleplay, though I at least now know that for future naming.

If you still like -tongue or think it works, that's cool. You don't have to change anything on my account or anything like that. I believe that people need to do what they think is right, not what other people dictate. Harm Principle up in this, ehehehe.

Thank you

Cheers, but don't thank me. This is what these threads are for - discussion. You're sharing your insight, I'm sharing mine, everyone's learning stuff and that's the way it ought to be.

[Mimi]

I think -tongue is still viable because I disagree that it inherently makes a cat a threat to the current leadership. I do think we need to slightly rephrase what it as well as throat (I'm not touching song) are used for. To me, -tongue is used for a cat who is diplomatic and personable. That second part is key for me. A leader would use the -tongue suffix to label the sort of cat who needs to be included in a group that would be otherwise volatile. -tongue is not for a cat who is manipulative or loud. I think -throat more indicates a loud cat, one is hopefully positively loud when the leader decides to name them such (though obviously loud can go negative). -tongue indicates those cats that are vital to keeping groups from clawing each other into nothing.

[Grey]

To me, -tongue is used for a cat who is diplomatic and personable. That second part is key for me.

That's interesting. Just about every example I have seen of -tongue has been used to imply a "sharp-tongued" cat. I'd consider that the opposite of your interpretation, since being sharp-tongued implies that the person (or cat) is sarcastic or overtly critical when talking to others, maybe even snarky or generally caustic.

I don't really think of those traits as ones conducive to teamwork or a pleasant sort of personality. Of course, this is just the commonly used implication of -tongue; there's nothing wrong with having alternate interpretations.

[Mimi]

Well, I haven't seen it used much, buy if those are the common implications, they suck and need to be changed. What leader names the warriors for the fact they're jackasses? Well . . . I suppose that could be useful too, but still, personable and diplomatic makes way more sense in my book.

[Grey]

Well, I haven't seen it used much,

I keep an eye out for this sort of thing. It's kind of a weird hobby of mine.

What leader names the warriors for the fact they're jackasses? Well . . . I suppose that could be useful too, but still, personable and diplomatic makes way more sense in my book.

I absolutely agree. No suffix should imply the worst traits of the cat. That's a nasty thing to do. Nevertheless, it seems that most people who use -tongue disagree.

Edit:
Also, I realised afterwards how incredibly suss that all sounds and decided to just leave it as is.