tin
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Post by tin on Oct 5, 2012 16:59:08 GMT -6
(Tin's first thread. Woohoo~)
Hey guys. I'm going to do this as neatly and un-ramble-y as possible.
I even took notes while I was in the chiropractor's office today. -gold star-
Alright. Welcome to warriors, where everyone is straight or they just don't mate. Sit down, lay back, and enjoy the scenery.
Touchy subject warning, maybe?
Also possible mature content warning.
I've been in a lot of warriors groups and roleplays since my initial introduction to the series several years ago and, aside from terrible fanfiction and frightening shipping on DA, I haven't seen a whole lot of homosexual warriors.
Now I can see why, especially in groups where roleplayers try to maintain realism- Homosexuality (and love, really) are very anthropomorphised concepts. Why do cats mate? Equal parts lust and instinct. Female cats go into heat, that drives the toms crazy. We know this part. But another driving factor is the need to reproduce (especially is feral cat communities.)
Do cats mate for love (companionship may be a better term)? I don't know. I just recently got my first cat- a neutered male- who shows love for nothing but his brush, his food bowl, and sunny spots under windows. In this area I have very little experience with cats.
In Canonland, it seems the Hunter 'partner' system is a mix. Yes, the relationships are based on love (if that's what the Hunters call it), but there isn't a pair of cats that has fallen in love that hasn't borne kits out of it (unless one of the participating parties is unable). I have, however, only read as far as the second arc. I may be missing something here.
So if Clan relationships are equal parts love and sex (in most cases), where does sexuality tie into this? It's (sadly) obvious in Canon, which is "for kids", that there are no homosexual cats. Is love that is love simply for the company of the other a far too antropomorphised concept for feral cats? Though I'm sure we all want to get into the technicalities of a sexual relationship between a same-sex pair of cats, we won't be delving into those details today. But sex between cats of the gender certainly doesn't seem very fun or easy. A homosexual relationship between cats would be based purely off of companionship, no sex or kittens added on. So I don't even know what to think about homosexuality in feral cats anymore.
I know that, beyond the frightening shipping fanbase, I hardly ever see homosexual cats roleplayed by (respectable) roleplayers. In fact, I've never seen it firsthand- I've only heard about it.
This started out as character research and ended with me questioning the whole concept- I do love questioning things.
Fandoms butcher homosexuality a lot. They like making boys who are basically girls and dsjdhj. It's frustrating and I hate it.
So we aren't talking about feminine cats whose names end in -flower and who hang out with the she-cats and help the medicine cat or the queens. Just no. I'm sure those could exist and I wouldn't mind them in a small amount, but I know it would come in truckloads. I am talking about cats. Plain, normal, hard-working, everyday warriors who just happen to like cats of the same gender.
Maybe I just need to get out more. Maybe the shortage of feasible homosexual cats is there. Maybe it just isn't feasible and I need to find that out.
So, what I'm getting at is this:
Is homosexuality (minus the sex) feasible in Clan (or loner) life? I know that (male) cats are prone to hopping each other if other toms are the only things about, but I'm trying to find something a bit deeper than this. For this reason, I am asking you, the lovely people of fourtrees, for your input so that I may sort out this mess going on in my head.
I tried not to make it so rambly- I really did.
Please beat me over the head with a stick- tell me how to improve, tell me where I'm wrong, give me your opinion.
I posted this for discussion, not to toss my points at you and run away.
Guys, I really feel like I wrote and worded this terribly. Unless I'm writing an essay that I'm going to be graded on, or a reply in-roleplay, my writing is wholly useless. This, however, has been on my mind and I really do want your opinions on it.
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Post by celestialsquared on Oct 5, 2012 17:18:00 GMT -6
If there is homosexuality in the clans, then I'm sure the relationship would be more like a "bromance" kind of deal, sort of like the relationship between Fireheart and Graystripe. (I have never seen a relationship like this between male cats ever since in the books) I guess these types of relationships are impractical to the clans and in the end they'll end up taking a female companion as well.
Canonly, mating usually implies that kits are going to come out of it. It's the whole point of a mate in the books, I think; a companion in which you produce kits with.
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Post by Lady Ten on Oct 5, 2012 17:22:42 GMT -6
I am really ignorant on this whole subject, so I'll let others answer your main questions, but in the mean time I do have a few things to contribute here. First, I do know that Forest of Fate (a literate traditional forum) does allow homosexual characters. I don't know if anyone has taken advantage of that policy or if there are any shining examples to provide here, but I know the potential is there, and someone who knows more about this could probably direct you to the right thread. Fandoms butcher homosexuality a lot. They like making boys who are basically girls and dsjdhj. It's frustrating and I hate it. So we aren't talking about feminine cats whose names end in -flower and who hang out with the she-cats and help the medicine cat or the queens. Just no. I'm sure those could exist and I wouldn't mind them in a small amount, but I know it would come in truckloads. I am talking about cats. Plain, normal, hard-working, everyday warriors who just happen to like cats of the same gender. Careful there; gay stereotypes aren't fair, but then again neither is valuing gender conformity over femininity. The idea of a "normal" tom is kind of questionable itself. Also, is that my imagination, or are you using "cats" to mean "male cats" in this quote? Thank you for making this thread. Not only was this board looking a bit bare, but this is a topic I expect to generate some good discussion. |
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Post by mistytail on Oct 5, 2012 17:26:57 GMT -6
First of all, this thread needed to exist and I want to smooch your hand for making it. Thank you <3 Now, onto the topic at hand! Homosexuality (and love, really) are very anthropomorphised concepts. Why do cats mate? Equal parts lust and instinct. Female cats go into heat, that drives the toms crazy. We know this part. But another driving factor is the need to reproduce (especially is feral cat communities.) Very accurate. Sexuality is very much a social construct that has been so ingrained in our minds that when we anthropomorphize animals, we can't help but put human ideas of sexuality in. Hence why the ideas of love and infatuation are put into the series. Because the cats acknowledge love within the canon, it can therefore be assumed that their relationships are not just based on sex. No, you're right - literally every pair of cats that has fallen in love has had kits. Even ones that are bound by the warrior code not to, like Yellowfang and Raggedstar, Leafpool and Crowfeather, and Graystripe and Silverstream. As of yet, Squirrelflight is the only cat believed to be infertile. In a feral cat colony, I would assume homosexuality is uncommon. However, because the series is anthropomorphized, it should be considered at least reasonable. (As a fun fact, Vicky said in a Q&A on a book tour once "I've always thought Littlecloud didn't exactly like she-cats, if you know what I mean." Of course, this was about a month after the "Dumbledore is gay" drama, so I've always written it off as a cheap, lazy effort to ride on Rowling's coattails.) As far as I know, it's handled very well at Forest of Fate, so you can check it out there if you'd like. You need 20+ site karma to make a homosexual cat in the first place though (though you can use it to alter the sexuality of a currently-existing character). I very much like your point but I would like to respectfully argue this portion. Why is it bad for tomcats to be more feminine? Why is -flower an inherently feminine suffix? Why is it bad that they help the queens and the medicine cat? That said, I agree with you that homosexual cats should not always be feminine. Homosexual men is often looked down upon by straight men because liking men is a "feminine" thing to do. I would love to see toms comfortable in their masculinity that happen to like other toms. Sexual orientation has zero effect on character or skill. Also, where are our lesbian kittycats? :C The ladies need some loving too! |
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Post by Lady Ten on Oct 5, 2012 17:35:16 GMT -6
Also, where are our lesbian kittycats? :C The ladies need some loving too! Is it just tumblr me, or does it seem like whenever someone talks about "homosexuality", what they really mean is "gay men"? I am the admitted ignoramus on all of these issues, but even I know that includes lesbians too, and it's weird to me that people will jump to focusing on just men. In most fandoms, though, a lot of female fans (and thus, the majority of fanfic writers and roleplayers) focus more on gay male ships than any other, as if out of some widespread communal preference. I'm not sure if that accounts for it or not. |
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Post by celestialsquared on Oct 5, 2012 17:44:11 GMT -6
Also, where are our lesbian kittycats? :C The ladies need some loving too! Is it just tumblr me, or does it seem like whenever someone talks about "homosexuality", what they really mean is "gay men"? I am the admitted ignoramus on all of these issues, but even I know that includes lesbians too, and it's weird to me that people will jump to focusing on just men. In most fandoms, though, a lot of female fans (and thus, the majority of fanfic writers and roleplayers) focus more on gay male ships than any other, as if out of some widespread communal preference. I'm not sure if that accounts for it or not. No, you're right Ten. I'm often under the impression that lesbian relationships are more acceptable than gay relationships. Mostly because when I watch television they always show females making out but never males making out. It's weird. |
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vbfdoee
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Post by vbfdoee on Oct 5, 2012 17:48:02 GMT -6
We talked a bit about lesbians being objectified over in the schlotzky's buns thread
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Post by mistytail on Oct 5, 2012 17:58:50 GMT -6
Also, where are our lesbian kittycats? :C The ladies need some loving too! Is it just tumblr me, or does it seem like whenever someone talks about "homosexuality", what they really mean is "gay men"? I am the admitted ignoramus on all of these issues, but even I know that includes lesbians too, and it's weird to me that people will jump to focusing on just men. In most fandoms, though, a lot of female fans (and thus, the majority of fanfic writers and roleplayers) focus more on gay male ships than any other, as if out of some widespread communal preference. I'm not sure if that accounts for it or not. Like Celeste and Bee said, a lot has to do with lesbians being objectified. Their sexuality is often seen as versatile, the "I'll **** you straight" line is used far too often at gay ladies for it not to be seen as such. In that same vein, straight women fetishize male homosexuality the way straight men fetishize female homosexuality. Their sexuality is not for their own benefit, but to be used as a tool to titillate the audience. Some shows are doing this now with male homosexuality in a practice called "queerbaiting," wherein the writers will constantly hint at a gay relationship between two men, or drop obvious subtext, but never bring it to fruition. BBC's Sherlock is incredibly guilty of this, well-made as it is. The difference between queerbaiting and having lesbians open on TV, however, is that the men will never admit their sexuality - however, it is completely acceptable for the ladies to be open, because the mindset is that they "don't really mean it" to the general public. |
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tin
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Post by tin on Oct 5, 2012 17:58:50 GMT -6
Eep. Reverse stereotyping is exactly what I was trying not to do. I should have explained that a bit more, but I added it at the end and already felt extremely ramble-y.
Here's what I mean:
I tried to explain a little in the original post, but I didn't do a very good job of it. When I see fans using homosexual characters, all I see are these feminized men or boys (it's a different story for females, I'll get to that). Normal was the wrong terminology- another mistake on my part. And I don't know if there is a word for what I meant. Maybe... A cat can have any personality. Grumpy, sarcastic, dedicated, and even romantic. I want to see this wide array of personalities and shapes and colors in characters. I don't mind an effeminate tom. I think they're cute and cool and lovely. But when each homosexual character that you do see becomes a cardboard cut-out, a stereotype, then I have a problem with it. I guess what I was trying to get at is... why don't we see homosexuals portrayed in the coolness and diversity that they come in in real life- not just as females with a male's body.
In that quotation I was referring to toms, yes. I've had even less experience in lesbian characters in warriors (the only one I've ever seen was my own) so I don't know if they do come with as much of a stereotype.
I love seeing diverse characters. I love making divers, out-of-the-ordinary characters because they're so much more fun to play and develop. So it's a constant frustration to me that, in the warriors fandom, the diversity seems to be lacking in this area.
This is a whole other discussion that I need to go and comment on later, but I'm going to touch on it super quick because I love to talk about it.
This is my independent opinion, but I take -flower to represent a paternal or nurturing cat (one who would make an excellent parent or mentor- both parts nurturing and fierce) of either gender. I have a tom named Weaselflower, straight as the graph of x=5, who just happens to be a very paternal type of cat.
-end off-topic rant-
I'm on FOF. I visit quite frequently nowadays, actually. That 20 karma thing does bother me a little (Rolo has told me the reasoning for this and I respect it) as I had a character in mind who I would have loved to roleplay on that site. I guess I'll just have to saving up karma (however I do that.)
As stated earlier, I have even less experience with the roleplaying of lesbian cats. I have a she-cat who is a lesbian, but she's the only one that I have actually seen around.
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tin
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Post by tin on Oct 5, 2012 18:25:43 GMT -6
Bam. Here we go.
The reason my post was mainly directed towards toms.
There's a lot of girls in the fandom. I'll go out on a limb and say that, yes, most of the fandom is made up of straight females. I see male homosexuality abused far more often than I see female homosexuality, so it's what I'm prone to direct my discussion towards.
I mentioned that I hardly see homosexual she-cats in the fandom. It's sad, it's horrible. I wish I could see more diversity in the fandom (and not the scary pink cat kind.)
Homosexuality is often objectified. It's viewed as wild, risky, and out-of-the-norm. People write slashfics and ship gay couples for the thrills- not because the pair could actually constitute a nice couple. And you certainly see this happening more often with male couples than females.
At least, this is what I see from my limited view in this little corner of life.
As homosexuality becomes more commonly accepted, I'm sure the hype about it would go down (at least to some degree.) But the current trend of 'sexing up' homosexuality really does get me mad sometimes :c
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Post by Grey on Oct 5, 2012 23:49:34 GMT -6
That's a just a bromance. If this is the definition of homosexuality for guys, I am pretty sure all guys are gay. Seriously, some of the bromances I know of are just so intense; they transcend all the quadrants. I guess it would be the same thing for male cats then, if it's all anthropomorphised like that.
I don't think that equals mate status. It just wouldn't be seen as anything more than companionship, and definitely not in the way that a tom and a she-cat are mates.
This exactly. I honestly think 'mates' is only a valid label if kits are happening or intended. Therefore, any homosexual 'couple' wouldn't be considered mates – just close friends.
Because I don't see toms having kittens. As far as I'm concerned, -flower is for mothers. Let's be honest – toms are useless when it comes to kittens. They can't really look after them; they best they can do is keep them warm. Canonically, toms keep out of the nursery. Realistically, toms kill kittens. Anthropomorphism plays a part, especially in a series for kids, but I can't help but think that a suffix about raising life should be given to those who are, for the most part, responsible for it.
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Rolo
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Post by Rolo on Oct 6, 2012 11:25:42 GMT -6
As far as I know, it's handled very well at Forest of Fate, so you can check it out there if you'd like. You need 20+ site karma to make a homosexual cat in the first place though (though you can use it to alter the sexuality of a currently-existing character). Thankyou very much :D Glad you like it :D And yes, as Tin said, it is a little bit of an annoyance to have to save up karma for it. I'm a little bit iffy about the idea myself. However, it was originally bought in because the previous owner of the site, Crow, was gay, and he did not want badly represented gay characters on the site. We also had members who asked for them not to be used at all (both gay and straight), so it's a part of the site we have to take seriously. As for examples on the site, we've had very few gay characters. Some were labelled such, but it never played a huge part in rp. One couple was about, and that was well represented, and that one was motivated by obsession on one cat's part, and a type of overly caring bromance style love on the other. They had travelled and lived together for a while, and then were separated, and the obsessive one believed him dead. They met later on, but it never became an overtly romantic relationship. However, the motives of both cats were clear and respectful, which worked for me. I tend to avoid thinking about the theories and facts behind gay relationships and cats. To get mixed up in the politics of gay stereotypes, femininity and masculinity and the functionality of gay relationships is to be overthinking it in rp terms. When making a gay character, you are making a character. You are not analysing gay characters as a phenomenon, you are focusing on one individual, for which these issues don't usually play into things (unless they're an activist, in which case they'll have their own individual stance on things). Instead, you need to focus on the MOTIVES of the gay character, how their homosexuality shapes their behaviour and how they see it as an aspect of their lives, and ignore the rest of the stuff. So, an individual could make a character that could be seen as stereotypically gay in some aspects (in terms of behaviour, however a person needs greater understanding of sexuality past what they've learnt from stereotypes), but as long as the character has good groundwork in terms of motives and A PROPER personality outside their sexuality, that's fine. If a person wants to go the 'extreme bromance'/'girl-crush' route, that's fine, under the same circumstances of having a fleshed out character and motive. Heck, if a person wants a character completely indistinguishable from a straight character that just happens to be romantically interested in dudes/girls, they're welcome. As long as character's bio and player show understanding of what they're writing, and it's respectful, I believe it's fine to use it as an aspect of character. In the end, when it comes to issues of sexual and gender identity, you cannot undermine the experience of the individual. There will never be one 'correct' or 'innately acceptable' way of portraying a gay character, so you have to work on making each individual one reasonable and well-constructed. My experiences suggest otherwise in terms of fandom. Although there are more girls, a lot of them are of different sexualities (of all types) and there do seem to be a lot of asexuals. The fact that male homosexuality is portrayed more in the warriors fandom seems to be down to the fact that slash is favoured in pretty much every fandom. Femslash seems to be less popular overall. I think this is partly down to it being seen as more taboo and/or 'interesting', because males are stereotypically portrayed as less emotional and very objectifying of women, and gay males often go completely against that (in terms of stereotypes, again). But that's just me theorising. |
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Mimi
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Post by Mimi on Oct 12, 2012 1:16:31 GMT -6
I don't have a lot to contribute to this discussion other than, man, now I want to make a panromantic asexual cat to spice things up by spicing things down. He/she can have the best infatuations ever and go for long walks in the woods.
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Post by Grey on Oct 12, 2012 1:25:21 GMT -6
I like your style, Mimi. Let's be friends.
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Mimi
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Post by Mimi on Oct 12, 2012 1:32:52 GMT -6
I like your style, Mimi. Let's be friends. Yay! We can totally be friends. Can my asexual cat asexually crush on some of your cats? This cat needs a name so I can make him/her somewhere. |
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