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Post by Grey on Apr 11, 2013 20:20:52 GMT -6
[UNDER CONSTRUCTION]
This is where we debate and discuss the clans' culture, history, habits, anything else like that. I think that - to stop everything becoming a huge, impossible mess - we should have categories to mark what kind of headcanon we're writing about, and these are my suggestions for possible categories:
- anthropomorphism: (how should the cats act? What do they have in common with humans? Debates and headcanons about that goes under this category.)
- clan culture: (this is about the things that make a clan a clan, not just a group of cats. What are the rituals? What's the social norms? What makes the clans different from each other? All that here.)
- naming systems: (this is, obviously, about the naming of cats and such.)
- history: (all about how the clans formed, past battles, the development of the warrior code, all that jazz).
- belief systems: (this is specially for Starclan discussion and theories, as well as talk of the Place Of No Stars, and possibly other belief systems that are relevant.)
And anything else you would like to add. I'm going to write up some of my headcanons shortly. If we need some other categories, let me know and I'll add them to this list-y thing.
Probably a good time as well to say that this thread is likely to have mature content in keeping with the audience demographic (approximately sixteen and up), so that means there may be talk of sexuality, violence, etcetera, and therefore all reading is done at your own risk. Please do not read if you are a child, or if any of that will upset you. Cheers.
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Post by Grey on Apr 12, 2013 3:52:14 GMT -6
Clan Culture:
-regarding Shadowclan: Shadowclan cats have the widest vocabulary of any clan, as they are frequently in contact with loners, rogues, and other strangers and learn new words and terms for things from them. They have, arguably, the best understanding of humans and the world beyond the forest. Many use slang or strange words that they've picked up from all over the place.
- regarding Riverclan: as they have a niche territory and are often the best-fed clan, they have had the luxury to develop crude forms of "art" and an appreciation for beauty (which is something foreign to the other clans). This is why they collect things like shells, feathers and pretty pebbles; they also value beauty as an important trait for cats to have, and this can make them seem vain and superficial.
[new 14/3] - regarding Windclan: as they live in a comparatively desolate territory that carries sound well but provides little comfort or entertainment, Windclan have developed an appreciation for words in a similar way as Riverclan appreciates beauty. Rather than beauty in items, Windclan find beauty in speech, and great orators, debaters, story-tellers, and pseudo-poets are highly esteemed in their clan. They consider themselves to be wise and reasonable in nature, and can be swayed by good arguments. Most important decisions in the clan are debated by the group thoroughly, and deputies are often chosen (as least partially) due to their notable charisma.
Naming systems:
-regarding name-changes: a name-change is not considered a negative thing. It's an acceptable cultural acknowledgement of a cat's ability to survive against the odds, and is to be respected. However, some leaders have broken that custom in order to humiliate cats (as Bluestar did to Brightheart/Lostface), and that is seen as a terrible thing to do.
Anthropomorphism:
- cats' memories are not exceptionally good in most cases. They don't dwell on the past all that much, generally speaking, and are really more in the moment, and to a slightly less degree, thinking of the future. Occasionally, some cats have exceptionally good memories and are able to remember many things, regardless of how long ago they were told them, but those cats are rare. In order to keep memories alive, cats need to consistently refresh their memories, and that is usually done through stories. Because of their memories being relatively short, cats tend not to grieve for too long over the deceased. If stories aren't told about deceased cats, they are often forgotten before another year passes.
- tomcats frequently fight each other in order to get attention and respect from she-cats. It's not personal (the toms might even be brothers or best friends) or life-threatening in any way; it's just a way of showing off, in the hopes that it will make them look attractive to potential mates. Strong toms are generally preferred as mates, which is why young toms don't have mates - they usually have to wait until they're a few years old and more mature before a lady cat will even notice them. The only exception to that is if a young cat is particularly handsome (thus deserving of the -face suffix).
- (thank you very much, Rolo, for reminding me) the cats are predominantly active at night, not during the day. Day-time is when they sleep and lounge around, and night is when they hunt and conduct the usual warrior duties.
[edit; I forgot another] - cats can only count to a maximum of nine. Anything more than that is just "a lot" (which is definitely something I got from Watership Down, except that I imagine cats to be better at counting than rabbits, and also nine is a significant number for cats, what with nine lives and all). The in-world reason for nine is that each number is attributed to a body part: four paws, one tail, two ears, and two eyes, which adds up to nine. It's sort of like how kids count on their fingers.
Just to get us started.
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Post by Mistytail 2.0 on Apr 12, 2013 9:34:18 GMT -6
history/clan culture
[regarding shadowclan] - ShadowClan was the last clan to form and was primarily made up of outcasts. They cared little about where one came from, only that you had some form of strength to bring to the Clan. Because they were originally made up of outcasts and weaklings, they adopted higly aggressive outward behavior towards the other Clans. However, their inner-Clan behavior was founded on respect for one another and an acknowledgement that each cat has different strengths. Elders were and continue to be the most highly respected wuthin the Clan, and warriors often do what the other Clans call "apprentice duties" without hesitation.
Naming systems -
- RiverClan cats are often considered to be the most beautiful, and therefore a RiverClan cat with the -face suffix may find themselves the object of many cats' affections, even those outside their Clan.
clan culture
[regarding windclan] Races are held as part of a WindClan apprentice's final assessment. Groups of three to five are line up and told to run laps around the ourside of the camp. However, they are judged on running technique rather than speed - i.e. breathing properly, conscientiousness of surroundings, and if they stop to help a racer that has injured themself. Those that have the best technique are passed, meaning even if a cat wins the race they may still fail their assessment.
[regarding riverclan] - A RiverClan cat must be able to keep their head above water for an extended period of time to be eligible for warriorhood. They keep track of how long a cat has been swimming by taking a ribcage from a prey animal (usually a small minnow) and breaking one rib bone at a time after counting to three. If the cat keeps their head above water for the duration of the rib-breaking, they pass. This is often the longest swim of a RiverClan cat's life, and they sometimes refer to a long period of time as "bone-breaking." (Ex., "I swear that was the most bone-breaking patrol of my life! We went around the border three times!")
[regarding ThunderClan] ThunderClan are generally considered "lax" by other Clans when it comes to demands for warriorhood since their territory is easy to live in and they have no special tests aside from the hunting assessment to become a warrior.
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Rolo
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Post by Rolo on Apr 12, 2013 19:05:41 GMT -6
Just some quick notes. These days, I don't have a lot of patience for windy passages. Take and leave what you will.
anthropomorphism: (how should the cats act? What do they have in common with humans? Debates and headcanons about that goes under this category.)
*No more strange tail movements, like the tail-pats and tail-faces. I think that paying great attention to cat body language and using that as an element of communication would be brilliant. For example, the tail would be seen as an important tool for cats, I can imagine.
*Where and how a cat looks at you is also important, we could incorporate that?
- clan culture: (this is about the things that make a clan a clan, not just a group of cats. What are the rituals? What's the social norms? What makes the clans different from each other? All that here.)
*Sharing tongues should be a regular thing.
- history: (all about how the clans formed, past battles, the development of the warrior code, all that jazz).
*Perhaps a legend about the battle for Sunningrocks? Would add to the beginning of the book.
- belief systems: (this is specially for Starclan discussion and theories, as well as talk of the Place Of No Stars, and possibly other belief systems that are relevant.)
*Please, please, I beg, can we just scrap Canon Place of No Stars and start again, from scratch? If you guys haven't read my thread on the Dark Forest making no sense, go have a read. Honestly, conceptually it fails on every level.
*I'm in favour of making Starclan ambiguous. As in, any action Starclan 'makes' can be put down to other factors, such as it just being a dream, hallucinogenic herbs, etc. Of course, they can still really exist, but I feel like having some uncertainty could help the piece, as it'd keep you guessing.
Also, gonna say I don't agree with Grey's 'counting to nine' concept. For one, I think that cats would find numbers important, given that they need to monitor the amount of cats in their clan, whether there is enough fresh-kill to go around, etc. Additionally, I feel that the concept is way too similar to Watership Down and it kinda makes me uncomfortable.
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Cobalt
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Post by Cobalt on Apr 13, 2013 22:49:51 GMT -6
Anthropomorphism: - Please, let's be rid of the Supertails. As well as all the adult cats mewing things to each other.
- I think some subtle things with repetition would be nice. Like how many times in canon, when a cat twitches their whiskers they are trying to conceal their amusement. That was one thing I thought was pretty nice.
History: - I feel like there need to be a lot more legends in general. The cats always seem to be storytelling about their own lives, and it seems to me a Clan could forget its values and fall apart very quickly that way.
- Each Clan might have slightly varying versions of how the Clans formed that glorify theirs.
Belief systems: - StarClan's powers need to be limited in a very decided way. Like, they can only contact through the clouds or whatever but can go into dreams if these specific conditions are met. In canon, it was more like "sometimes you will get cryptic visions, and sometimes you'll get things that are pathetically obvious to the reader but not to you, and we can't follow you to find SkyClan except for Spottedleaf can somehow and of course we can go to the lake with you!"
- It would also be nice to see some genuine false-alarm prophecies. As in, Goosefeather sees something in the clouds and tells everyone to go do something and they do and he was so wrong it isn't even possible to argue that it's right. And that isn't particularly unusual, because gosh, reading the clouds is hard. It happens.
- [in response to Rolo] I am also in favor of scrapping the Place of No Stars, and I have tons of ideas for an alternate version of that if anyone cares to hear it. It basically revolves around going to StarClan by default but being stripped of certain abilities by a vote or trial.
- [in response to Rolo] I think it would be great to have it be ambiguous, but there is a catch: leaders get nine lives. And I like that, and I don't think there's any good way to just take it out either, and it's pretty hard to have that be ambiguous when you have cats receiving lethal wounds and having them magically heal and come back to life. This was always my problem with atheist cats. So that system needs to be edited or...or something.
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Post by Mistytail 2.0 on Apr 14, 2013 10:56:06 GMT -6
clan culture -
- Each Clan has a little motto or mantra they repeat to themselves in times of trouble, i.e. RiverClan's might be, "I flow with RiverClan and StarClan, nothing can harm me." Or ShadowClan's might be, "No darkness is without StarClan's light and ShadowClan's strength." It's one of the few things kits are expected to know by heart before entering their apprenticeship, and all apprentice training sessions end by repeating that phrase. It fosters belief in StarClan and Clan identity. - Each Clan has their own way of worshipping StarClan - ShadowClan "dance" (turn their battle moves into art) while reenacting legends, WindClan have "night runs" where they race across the moor while they trace the pattens of constellations with their tails, RiverClan build tributes and shrines to the deceased with shells and feathers, and ThunderClan have group storytelling where they each learn a piece of a story (a short story, if we're going to stick with the "cats have bad memories" thing), and after every Gathering they come together and tell the story, each cat saying their part when it's their turn.
Belief systems -
- Young kits are often prone to seeing starry cats in their sleep, usually departed family members. They usually do not remeber having these visions ever again once they get older, but it often gives their mother solace knowing that cat is waiting for them in the afterlife. If a kit continues to see visions of rhe dead in their sleep, they are usually chosen to be medicine cats.
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Post by Grey on Apr 14, 2013 18:03:22 GMT -6
My time it a little limited at the moment (I'm meant to be doing things) but I just wanted to add to the Starclan debate.
I'm with you on this one, Rolo. I prefer for the ambiguity and uncertainty of Starclan, and I actually strongly dislike the concept of cats being magically revived. It's always brushed me the wrong way, because it's exceptionally out-of-place, I think. In every other way (maybe disregarding the fact the cats talk, etcetera, and Scourge wears teeth on his claws or some expletive), Warriors isn't heavily fantasy. And then, suddenly, with no explanation, cats come back from the dead. Why only cats? Why do Starclan have this power? Is it just that they're dead and ~magic powers of the dead~, or is there something else at work? There's too many unanswered questions for me to idly accept it, I'm afraid.
However, Cobalt, I might be able to offer an alternative?
What if the whole "lethal wounds and magically heal" things is scrapped entirely, but the leaders still receive nine lives from dead cats. The catch is that I interpret lives not to mean "health restores", but their actual lives - their memories. The leader is, essentially, the collective memory of ten cats, which gives them incomparable wisdom and experience. They won't necessarily be able to remember on command - things will have to jot their memory - but it would still give them an edge on every other ordinary cat.
For example, a leader might get a life from a cat (let's say, Shadepaw) who was killed by a fox, and one day that leader is going through the forest with a patrol and picks up a fox-scent. Suddenly, he or she has a burst of memory - they have to climb a tree, the leader realises, because they won't be able to fight it off; Shadepaw realised this moments before he died. Because of the memories of Shadepaw, the leader saves his or her life, as well as the patrol, and passes on this knowledge to the clan.
So rather than the nine lives concept giving the leader a second chance of life after he or she stuffs it up, it could be that the nine lives actually act to stop those mistakes from happening and keep the clan safe. That's more in keeping with actual cat-ness, since the whole concept of nine lives started because cats have an uncanny way of getting themselves out of trouble.
Would that be a suitable sort of compromise, or do we still think that the nine lives act as a restart option?
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bbun
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Post by bbun on Apr 14, 2013 18:21:27 GMT -6
Although I'm not that active on this thread, eheh, I think I can go either way for the nine lives, or both.
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Post by Mistytail 2.0 on Apr 14, 2013 20:18:38 GMT -6
I really like your idea for nine lives, Grey! I think it's got that sort of fantasy feel but it's still within the realm of plausibility, and it makes the reader more concerned for the leader.
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leah
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Post by leah on Apr 14, 2013 21:02:33 GMT -6
Anthropomorphism -As has already been said, cats do not have magical tail-bendy powers, get rid of this nonsense -Cats bring their muzzles to ears, noses, etc, and each different one means something else, for example: muzzle-muzzle could show affection, muzzle-ear could show friendliness, and so on -No more meowing, cats don't "meow" to one another. They make a weird... clicky noise, not sure what it's called... anyway, only kits meow/mew -[Response to Grey] I don't think counting really matters with cats, it seems to jump all over... They say one, two, three, skip about six and whoops we're at nine now. I think they should just use phrases like "a few" or "a bunch" -Let's not make Night-time a sleeping time. Let's make whatever time any cat wants to sleep /their/ sleeping time.
Clan Culture -How about favoring towards certain pelts? Shadowclan prefer black pelts, Thunderclan prefer brown and golden pelts, Riverclan prefer gray pelts, and Windclan prefer ginger pelts. No Clan prefers white pelts as they are only effective for one season -Riverclan are notorious for being crafty - not just for den and nest-building, but also their fighting and hunting moves which are quite unique -Windclan only has dens for Sick Cats, Queens, Kits, Herbs, and a large shared den for Shelter from extreme weather like a snowstorm. The whole Clan - even the Leader - will almost always sleep out in the open - even under a light rainshower.
Naming Systems -It seems that the majority of us agree on Ailuronymy's style, but I think the system should be slightly more loose for people who are not traditional namers (allow suffixes like -breeze, -fire, etc...)
History -I think some of the stories from Code of the Clans can be rewritten, especially those where it makes no sense how it directly affects the actual code or why it didn't exist to begin with. I think a good chunk-maybe 75%-of the Code should exist from the beginning, with only a few added shortly after. -Skyclan still existed in the beginning, but Storytellers over time forgot of them because, initially, Elders did not want to explain to young kits of the story when the Four remaining Clans refused to help Skyclan - and sent them to exile.
Belief Systems -As explained on the Starclan thread under the rewrite folder, I proposed a few things relating to them: -The starry sky and the moon are actually just a physical representation of Starclan's forest. Each Star is not /actually/ a Starclan Warrior, it only /represents/ one. The Moon is the physical representation of Starclan's "gateway" to the living world. -This means that on the full moon, Starclan and the living world have absolute contact and explains Gatherings - where even the dead cats can attend. -On the new moon, Starclan has absolutely no contact with he living world. -The half-moon creates a "balance" between the two worlds and the Medicine Cats - being "living messengers" of Starclan, can go to the Moonstone where they can actually go into Starclan's forest and speak with them. Cats can still visit Starclan through the Moonstone at any time except the new moon, but the half-moon creates the strongest "balance". -The Dark Forest can just be removed for all I really care because it serves no other purpose than to be a plot device for the fourth arc and Crookedstar's Promise. It's completely nonsensical.
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Post by Grey on Apr 14, 2013 23:53:24 GMT -6
I'm sorry about this, but unsurprisingly, this is the one thing I will absolutely not compromise about. I know that makes me sound like an adjective expletive, but the fact remains that there's a reason I write Ailuronymy, and it's because it makes sense. I can't see much point in re-imagining Into The Wild just to repeat the mistakes of canon. You might as well include the super-tails.
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Rolo
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Post by Rolo on Apr 17, 2013 5:39:12 GMT -6
The only thing I'd say, on the naming style, is that I'd rather that we went on a culmination of traditionalism by debating each name. I say this because I really don't like the idea that one person would have all the final say over the names, since this is a collaborative project. We could take a vote on each name or something according to our own beliefs on traditionalism?
Btw, I think we might be at the stage where we should start discussing what everyone else has said and what we all like from other peoples stuff... maybe. IDK. Grey is running this shizzle.
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sil
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Post by sil on Apr 17, 2013 14:57:01 GMT -6
hi everyone~ :] anthropomorphism: gonna go off on a bit of a tangent here already, forgive me. One of my favorite things about the Guardians of Ga'Hoole series was that it taught me a wealth of information about owls as a kid. The author obviously did tons of research on owls, how they function, how they fly in different weathers, differences between species, etc. They were very owl-lish, but none of it took away from the anthropomorphism of the series! I would really like to see more cat-isms in the remake. The original books vaguely mention the Jacobson's organ and never brings up other cool cat-stuff like the importance of their whiskers (i.e., a blindfolded cat can still deal a perfect killing blow), their tails, their righting reflex (yo, which cats w/o tails even have, Halftail), their "psi-traveling," things like this. clan culture: I like the idea of favoring certain pelts. I think the Clans would logically have characteristic pelts and body types because of what they hunt and the territory they live in, for example: ThunderClan, because they hunt in the forest and undergrowth, would have striped, patched, tortoiseshell, or any other patterns that help "break up" their body shape while hunting. Maybe they can be adept at climbing to retrieve prey, giving them stronger shoulders and legs for hauling themselves up. The extra muscle could make them the physically strongest overall. RiverClan would have short, thick fur that sheds water easily, which is made oily by the fish they eat and also aides in waterproofing. Because they must swim and fish in the water, they have stronger back legs and are agile and good leapers. For ShadowClan I like the idea of darker pelt colors. The wiki mentions that ShadowClan are the best hunters at night, which greatly confuses me since all cats hunt at night?? It also says that they eat primarily frogs and reptiles, and, as far as I know, most reptiles are active during the day---so what are they hunting at night? .-. Because ShadowClan has " the smallest amount of territory and prey," perhaps ShadowClan is the most respectful of their prey? Frogs and reptiles hibernate in the winter, leaving only the Carrionplace, and that is a huge risk of disease for them. Maybe they have different rituals, like a short, respectful phrase when they end a prey's life, and/or a big feast before the hibernation season? WindClan has already been distinguished as having slender, small bodies with short fur and for being very quick. Although the honor of the "brave" Clan has generally been given to ThunderClan, I think WindClan deserves this distinction; they hunt rabbits, (which are generally the same size as cats) hares, (which are even larger and quicker) and occasionally the birds of prey that hunt them (which, by extension, are also threats to cats). Rabbits and hares have sharp claws and teeth to fight back---you need some serious chutzpah as a little WindClan cat to take on a full-grown hare or a raptor. They'd be very courageous in battle as well, though they would not be foolhardy about it.
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Post by Grey on Apr 18, 2013 3:54:15 GMT -6
Hey, Sil. Thanks for the contribution, it's rad.
I honestly don't think it played that much of a role in their society - especially not in the books themselves - but if it bothers you that much, then it doesn't have to be. If anyone else thinks it's a bad idea, that's enough reason not to include something. It's also not really that important of a detail one way or another.
However, I did like Misty's headcanon about the "bone-breaking". I thought that could be a nice way to fix the problem; cats might be able to count to nine without difficulty, but for numbers larger than nine or for addition or subtraction, they would have to use some kind of tally in order to visual it. Counting method might change between clans - for example, Thunderclan might count to nine, and the tenth number is represented by an acorn. So twenty-two would be "two, and two acorns"; compared to that, Riverclan might use the "bone-breaking" technique, and maybe only count to five before using the visual aid, hence twenty-two would be "two, and four bones".
If you still don't like it, Rolo, it can be scrapped. It's just a headcanon, after all.
Sounds fair.
Are you suggesting having a different thread for this, or something like that? I thought everyone would just use this thread and the other one to debate, but new threads can be made if necessary.
Thank you very much, I appreciate that. I hoped it might be a good one.
I'm in support of ditching the canon Place of No Stars and re-inventing it. By all means, please share your ideas for the alternative, Cobalt. I feel that the more raw material we generate here can only benefit us at this point.
I think this has a lot of potential, Leah, and I thought of some other things that could connect onto it when it comes to how the cats and entire clans greet each other. I'll write it up shortly.
Ehehehe, cheers, Rolo, but I'm really not. I'm just here to nudge things along if need be, and as a maker of relevant threads.
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Post by Grey on Apr 18, 2013 5:01:47 GMT -6
Clan culture (/anthropomorphism, I guess):
- the cats of the clans are fairly ritualistic when it comes to interacting, as it's important for maintaining social harmony (being disrespectful can start unnecessary fights) and because of the hierarchical system that's inherent to their sense of community. The types of interactions/relationships dictate the required behaviour - for example, two good friends from the same clan will behave differently from two sort-of-friends from different clans, who in turn behave very differently from an apprentice addressing their mentor or leader, so on and so forth.
- crouching is considered to be very respectful, and expected of cats addressing leaders formally: if a warrior from Windclan was sent to Thunderclan to deliver a message, that cat would crouch before the leader as proof of respect and good-will. Apprentices often crouch when addressed sternly by their mentors, and are usually expected to do the same to senior warriors (both from their clan, and to those they meet at Gatherings). Some cats may crouch to elders as a sign of respect, but this is not really a rule - it's more an individual choice that each cat makes. Some cats might crouch to them, some may not. + [edit] - it is extremely important for any cat of any rank to crouch when meeting a queen and her kits (while they're still young). This is because a queen can become very aggressive or destructive if she feels threatened, so all cats go out of their way to treat mothers with careful respect.
[new] - queens have been known to eat their kittens under extreme stress - it's an instinctive response, not a cognitive one. Clans ensure to the best of their ability that this does not happen by limiting disruption; only the medicine cat is allowed to visit mothers and their new litters until the mother feels comfortable with other guests. If the worst does happen - for whatever reason - it's considered a tragedy, but not something that a queen can be truly blamed for. It is the greatest fear for mothers, and a very dark subject - not something freely spoken about.
[new] - in cases of severely injured or unwell newborn kittens, the queen may feel obliged to end its life quickly if she thinks there's no chance of its survival.
[new] - there are two reasons that medicine cats must remain celibate, one for toms and one for she-cats. The reason for she-cats is because it's important that she is always able to do her duty to the clan; if she has kits, it's believed that she will have a hard time balancing motherhood and her other responsibilities - since, unlike a warrior, her skills will always be in demand and they clan can't afford for her to live in the nursery for a few moons. For toms, the reason for celibacy isn't because kittens will get in the way of his work (since being a father is not taxing for toms at all), but because it actually makes him considerably less threatening to queens with kits, which is incredibly important. The medicine cat must have access to check on the queens and their newborn kits, and sexually-active toms can be deeply distressing for mothers (owing to instincts suggesting the toms might want to harm the babies). By abstaining, a medicine cat tom is not viewed in the same light.
- each clan has developed different methods of greeting and valediction, which usually includes a clan-specific phrase and sometimes a gesture - as an example of what something might be, Riverclan may wave their tails when parting (as though to invoke the movement of water), and say something along the lines of, "May your coat dry quickly". (This ties in with Misty's headcanon of the clans having mantras/a motto for troubled times, since I think it's likely that the tendency to use particular sentiments would also be part of their greeting/farewell phrases).
Naming systems:
- the reason that -paw is the apprentice suffix, not the suffix to represent speed, is because the word 'foot' in feline is actually referring to the entire leg and paw of an animal (such as a cat), and not just the leg or the paw/hoof/human foot/bird foot/whatever, collectively. Since a cat's speed relies on its legs and paws as a whole, it would be misleading to use either -paw or -leg to denote swiftness. The reason -paw was designated as the apprentice suffix in particular is because a cat's paws are endlessly useful in a myriad of ways without specialisation: a cat uses its paws to climb, hunt, fight, swim, run, move things around, you get the idea. Thus, it was appropriate to make the undifferentiated rank (as apprentices have no 'special skills' or anything yet) and mandatory suffix for every cat to be a valuable body part that doesn't have just one function, but plays a key part in almost every function.
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